The Gospel of the Kingdom and the plot twist.

[Hoping]

So apparently the entire Old Testament means nothing to you.

It is loaded with presages, shadows, cast by our Lord Jesus Christ.
I love seeing the prophesies fulfilled.

What was the point of separating out Israel as a nation separated from the world if, by a few Gentiles showing their faith, their (Israel's) Messiah would just go against everything he had done over the previous 1500 years, so that "the nationality of folks faded away in importance?"

It all showed the world the power, glory, mercy and wrath of God.
How does your POV hold up to..."But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian." (Luke 4:25-27)
God has been merciful to Gentiles for a long time before Jesus was also merciful.

 

[Hoping]

Now it is time to bring Paul in. Let's see if Israel just faded away in importance, negating the great commission given to them.

What great commission was given to Israel?
Israel did fade away, being dispersed by the Romans far across the map.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”​

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!​

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”​

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

The unbelieving Jews are a foot note in history.
The believing Jews are now "in Christ", with the rest of the world's believers.

 

[steko]

What great commission was given to Israel?
Israel did fade away, being dispersed by the Romans far across the map.

The unbelieving Jews are a foot note in history.
The believing Jews are now "in Christ", with the rest of the world's believers.

So, was the Holy Spirit mistaken?

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luk 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

 

[JudgeRightly]

How does your POV hold up to..."But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian." (Luke 4:25-27)
God has been merciful to Gentiles for a long time before Jesus was also merciful.

I'm not seeing the point you're making. Why would any of this be a problem for my POV?

Gentiles have always been able to come to God through Israel.

(In case you weren't aware, Sarepta is just north of modern day Israel. Elias/Elijah was a prophet OF ISRAEL.)

This is something my "POV" recognizes.

The other half of it is that no longer do Gentiles have to go through Israel, they can come to God directly.

This raises the question: What changed? Why did God go from requiring Gentiles to go through Israel to access Him, to just allowing anyone to access Him without going through Israel? Why not do that from the start?

My "POV" can answer that. Can yours?

 

[Clete]

I'm not seeing the point you're making. Why would any of this be a problem for my POV?

Gentiles have always been able to come to God through Israel.

(In case you weren't aware, Sarepta is just north of modern day Israel. Elias/Elijah was a prophet OF ISRAEL.)

This is something my "POV" recognizes.

The other half of it is that no longer do Gentiles have to go through Israel, they can come to God directly.

This raises the question: What changed? Why did God go from requiring Gentiles to go through Israel to access Him, to just allowing anyone to access Him without going through Israel? Why not do that from the start?

My "POV" can answer that. Can yours?

By his question's premise, one might wonder why Paul seemed to think salvation coming the Gentiles was a new thing!

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

 

[Right Divider]

By his question's premise, one might wonder why Paul seemed to think salvation coming the Gentiles was a new thing!

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Goes nicely with this:

John 4:22 (KJV) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

[Hoping]

So, was the Holy Spirit mistaken?

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luk 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Not at all.
God in Christ came and redeemed His people.
God delivered the believers out of the hand of their enemies so they could serve Him without fear all of their lives.
That makes me think of..."The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:30-32)

And..."Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26)

Who was the enemy?
Sin.

 

[Hoping]

I'm not seeing the point you're making. Why would any of this be a problem for my POV?

You inferred that Jesus was more or less ignoring the Gentiles.

Gentiles have always been able to come to God through Israel.

So Jesus was not closing the "door" on the Gentiles at all.

(In case you weren't aware, Sarepta is just north of modern day Israel. Elias/Elijah was a prophet OF ISRAEL.)

Modern day Israel.
It was a city of Sidon once.

This is something my "POV" recognizes.
The other half of it is that no longer do Gentiles have to go through Israel, they can come to God directly.

I don't really see Cornelius or the Roman soldier or the Syrophoenician woman "going through Israel"
Like us now, they went through Jesus.

This raises the question: What changed? Why did God go from requiring Gentiles to go through Israel to access Him, to just allowing anyone to access Him without going through Israel? Why not do that from the start?

What changed was that God cast away those who would not obey Him.
He made a new way in the which they could remain faithful to His commands.
Love Him with all our mind, strength, and soul, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

My "POV" can answer that. Can yours?

Supra.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You inferred that Jesus was more or less ignoring the Gentiles.

And when I asked you, you agreed that the number of recorded interactions Jesus had with Gentiles was FAR fewer than His interactions with the Jews.

Scripture seems to at least support the idea that Jesus, at least on the surface, had no interest in going to the Gentiles.

So Jesus was not closing the "door" on the Gentiles at all.

What do doors have to do with this?

Modern day Israel.
It was a city of Sidon once.

The point, because you seemed to have missed it, intentionally or not, is that it's not implausible, rather likely, in fact, that the widow whom was mentioned in the passage you quoted, probably had some kind of interaction with Israel. Which supports my position.

I don't really see Cornelius or the Roman soldier or the Syrophoenician woman "going through Israel."

What does Scripture say?

Cornelius:
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment,a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.” - Acts 10:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts10:1-6&version=NKJV

PETER! A man of Israel!

Joppa is... you guessed it!... A city in Judea, which is part of Israel (greater Israel).

The gentile woman:
She went to Jesus Himself, directly, even though Jesus ignored her at first, then was asked by His disciples to send her away, and then only after she acknowledged her position as a Gentile subservient to Israel and not the intended recipient of the "bread," did He heal her daughter.

Like us now, they went through Jesus.

Jesus was born in Israel, was a citizen of Israel, grew up under the law of Israel, and is a descendant of Israel (Jacob).

Either way you look at it, at most, it supports both of our positions, but it definitely doesn't disprove mine.

What changed was that God cast away those who would not obey Him.

Nowhere does it state that anyone has been cast away.

Paul says the opposite!

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,“ Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life” ?But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.” - Romans 11:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:1-10&version=NKJV

He then goes on to demonstrate the manner in which Israel will be brought back in again!

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?”“Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. - Romans 11:11-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:11-36&version=NKJV

So no, God did not cast anyone away. He certainly cut off unbelieving Israel, but that's MY position, not yours.

He made a new way in the which they could remain faithful to His commands.
Love Him with all our mind, strength, and soul, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

"All you need is love," huh?

Why not just start out with that, then? Why go through all the trouble He went through with Israel?

 

[Hoping]

And when I asked you, you agreed that the number of recorded interactions Jesus had with Gentiles was FAR fewer than His interactions with the Jews.
Scripture seems to at least support the idea that Jesus, at least on the surface, had no interest in going to the Gentiles.

Jesus' mission was one step at a time, I suppose.
His interactions with Gentiles does prove He had not written the off.

What do doors have to do with this?

Supra.

The point, because you seemed to have missed it, intentionally or not, is that it's not implausible, rather likely, in fact, that the widow whom was mentioned in the passage you quoted, probably had some kind of interaction with Israel. Which supports my position.

As the words concerning Sidon were spoken by Jesus while telling the Jews that God had in times past ignored the Jews in favor of a Gentile, it makes sense again to help Gentiles in the face of Jewish resistance.

What does Scripture say?
Cornelius:
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment,a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.” - Acts 10:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts10:1-6&version=NKJV
PETER! A man of Israel!

In Christ, men are neither Jew nor Gentile. (Gal 3:28)

Joppa is... you guessed it!... A city in Judea, which is part of Israel (greater Israel).

I don't recall mentioning Joppa. ?

The gentile woman:
She went to Jesus Himself, directly, even though Jesus ignored her at first, then was asked by His disciples to send her away, and then only after she acknowledged her position as a Gentile subservient to Israel and not the intended recipient of the "bread," did He heal her daughter.

As I pointed out, she, among others, went to Jesus and not Israel.

Jesus was born in Israel, was a citizen of Israel, grew up under the law of Israel, and is a descendant of Israel (Jacob).
Either way you look at it, at most, it supports both of our positions, but it definitely doesn't disprove mine.

Perhaps we are looking at the situation from differing perspectives.
You are seeing everything through the eyes of one with a pre-resurrection POV, and I am looking at it from a post-resurrection POV.
I consider the risen Lord an Israeli as much as I consider my reborn self as an American.

Nowhere does it state that anyone has been cast away.

It is a metaphor.
They left Him to die, and He let them go.

Paul says the opposite!
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,“ Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life” ?But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.” - Romans 11:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:1-10&version=NKJV

Good catch.
I will use different words to show the unbelieving Israeli separation from the believing peoples and their Lord.

He then goes on to demonstrate the manner in which Israel will be brought back in again!
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?”“Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. - Romans 11:11-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:11-36&version=NKJV
So no, God did not cast anyone away. He certainly cut off unbelieving Israel, but that's MY position, not yours.

God has one grand plan...eh?

"All you need is love," huh?

In a nut shell, yes !

Why not just start out with that, then? Why go through all the trouble He went through with Israel?

To make His glory known.
The plan...you know?

 

[Rhema]

Oh joy... another anti-Paulian.

Jesus confirmed Paul's mission. Jesus sent Paul. See Acts 9 for both.

Welcome to my ignore list.

That's a complete mischaracterization, but I now know you like to take the easy way out instead of dealing the content presented.

Rhema

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus' mission was one step at a time, I suppose.
His interactions with Gentiles does prove He had not written the off.

The first step was to make Israel into a nation of priests. The second step was to send that nation to the rest of the world, to teach them about God directly.

God never got off the first step with Israel, because Israel rejected her Messiah

As the words concerning Sidon were spoken by Jesus while telling the Jews that God had in times past ignored the Jews in favor of a Gentile, it makes sense again to help Gentiles in the face of Jewish resistance.

Uh, no.

I think you're forgetting the context (or ignoring it, as you're wont to do) of the time Elijah lived in.

Elijah lived during the reign of King Ahab, one of the most wicked kings of Israel. When Israel became wicked, usually, God turned away from them, because He couldn't stand their (figurative) stench.

God didn't turn to start working with the Gentiles, however. He wouldn't cut off Israel until about 930 years after Ahab. How many times does Scripture indicate that God would destroy Israel, having "held out his hand to a rebellious people"? And then you have Paul telling us that God has cut off Israel for their unbelief.

In other words, you're not arguing against my position, only supporting it, and doing nothing to support your own position.

In Christ, men are neither Jew nor Gentile. (Gal 3:28)

There was no "in Christ" before Paul came on the scene.

I don't recall mentioning Joppa. ?

Dude, seriously, I literally asked you what Scripture says about Cornelius, and QUOTED THE RELEVANT PASSAGE, which tells me you didn't even bother to read that portion of my post.

This is how we know you havne't internalized scripture to any meaningful extent, because you can't even follow your own claims about it, or even be bothered to read the scriptures when they're quoted.

You are the one who mentioned Cornelius. Cornelius was told to send for Peter. Peter was in JOPPA at the time.

As I pointed out, she, among others, went to Jesus and not Israel.

And as I have repeatedly stated in counter to this and other things you've said:

She went to Jesus Himself, directly, even though Jesus ignored her at first, then He was asked by His disciples to send her away, and then only after she acknowledged her position as a Gentile subservient to Israel and not the intended recipient of the "bread," did He heal her daughter.

And again:

Jesus was born in Israel, was a citizen of Israel, grew up under the law of Israel, and is a descendant of Israel (Jacob). Either way you look at it, at most, it supports both of our positions, but it definitely doesn't disprove mine.

Perhaps we are looking at the situation from differing perspectives.

Yes, that much was already obvious. How you didn't know that is beyond me.

You are seeing everything through the eyes of one with a pre-resurrection POV,

Wrong. My view is a "post-Paulian" (to coin a term) view.

My view of Scripture focuses on the fact that Paul came preaching a different gospel than Jesus.

and I am looking at it from a post-resurrection POV.

True. But your view does not take into account Paul and his ministry.

I consider the risen Lord an Israeli as much as I consider my reborn self as an American.

Jesus was a Jew, not an Israeli...

It is a metaphor.

Israel was not cast away, which makes you wrong.

They left Him to die, and He let them go.

Again, Paul states clearly that Israel was not cast away, ONLY cut off. HUGE difference.

Good

You need to stop quoting part of the links I post. It's getting annoying having to remove them from my response.

It's a result of you highlighting text instead of just clicking on the "+Quote" button at the bottom of each post.

Either stop selecting the end of the links, or use the "+Quote" button.

catch.
I will use different words to show the unbelieving Israeli separation from the believing peoples and their Lord.

1) Israeli is the term used for citizens of modern day Israel. They are not necessarily Jews.
2) It was unbelieving ISRAEL (not individual jews) who were cut off for their unbelief.
3) Yes, Jesus is Lord, but it's not a matter of Jesus being their Lord (not in the same way as in the Body of Christ), but rather it's about Jesus being the promised Messiah.

God has one grand plan...eh?

He also has backup plans for when things don't go according to that plan.

In a nut shell, yes!

Wrong.

Love is needed, yes. But it shouldn't be the only thing you have.

To make His glory known.

Are you saying God couldn't do that if He didn't have a nation to call His own?

The plan...you know?

You sound like a calvinist. They try to make it sound like it's all about God maximizing His glory.

And while they're not necessarily wrong, they're not correct, either.

The most important thing in life is relationships. God wants a relationship with His creation. His plan was to make such a relationship possible.

But His people, who were called by His name, prevented Him from completing that plan, so He put that plan on hold, and began working on another plan, a mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, one that focuses not on corporate relationships, like with Israel, but with individual relationships. And as Paul states, He will resume his plan with Israel eventually, but not before certain requirements are met.

 

[Clete]

That's a complete mischaracterization, but I now know you like to take the easy way out instead of dealing the content presented.

Rhema

In what way is it a mischaracterization?

You directly implied that Paul lied when he "made the assertion" that Jesus "gave him a different mission" (to use your terminology). That's blatant heresy by ANY definition of the word! You've just thrown practically the entire Christian faith right out the window! The closest you could come to anything rationally consistent would be to become a Messianic Jew but I bet you couldn't find three of them that would agree with you on this point. They ignore Paul but they don't think he was a lying con artist who merely claimed to have gotten a new mission by revelation from the risen Jesus.

 

[JudgeRightly]

. . . become a Messianic Jew but I bet you couldn't find three of them that would agree with you on this point.

That reminds me of an idiom I think is relevant...

"Ask two Jews, you'll get three opinions."

 

[Clete]

That reminds me of an idiom I think is relevant...

"Ask two Jews, you'll get three opinions."

I wonder what percentage of Messianic Jews are saved? I know that nearly all of them more or less ignore Paul as far as their regular relgious practice goes and that, therefore, they're up to their eyeballs in legalism but that's not a terrible description of the church I attended as a child!

 

[Hoping]

The first step was to make Israel into a nation of priests.

Yes, Exod 19:6.
I suppose God meant "holy, sanctified people" when He said priests.
Otherwise the Levites would have been unnecessary from the start.
I am glad we can be holy, sanctified people now !

The second step was to send that nation to the rest of the world, to teach them about God directly.
God never got off the first step with Israel, because Israel rejected her Messiah

He did send the part of the nation that believed "unto the world".

Uh, no.
I think you're forgetting the context (or ignoring it, as you're wont to do) of the time Elijah lived in.
Elijah lived during the reign of King Ahab, one of the most wicked kings of Israel. When Israel became wicked, usually, God turned away from them, because He couldn't stand their (figurative) stench.
God didn't turn to start working with the Gentiles, however. He wouldn't cut off Israel until about 930 years after Ahab. How many times does Scripture indicate that God would destroy Israel, having "held out his hand to a rebellious people"? And then you have Paul telling us that God has cut off Israel for their unbelief.
In other words, you're not arguing against my position, only supporting it, and doing nothing to support your own position.

I don't know why you are going off on that track when it is clear that Jesus did help Gentiles.

There was no "in Christ" before Paul came on the scene.

LOL.
Everyone water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is "in Christ".
Paul did illustrate it in Rom 6, but still it had happened years before Paul wrote about it.

Dude, seriously, I literally asked you what Scripture says about Cornelius, and QUOTED THE RELEVANT PASSAGE, which tells me you didn't even bother to read that portion of my post.

It seems that your "going through Israel" meant walking in the nation.
Mine was more relevent to the Israeli "way" of salvation.

Wrong. My view is a "post-Paulian" (to coin a term) view.
My view of Scripture focuses on the fact that Paul came preaching a different gospel than Jesus.

You may not have read the last part of that paragraph..."...and I am looking at it from a post-resurrection POV.
I consider the risen Lord an Israeli as much as I consider my reborn self as an American."
Spiritually, I am no longer an American, as my "country" is with God.
Just as I don't consider Jesus an Israeli since His resurrection.
He was an Isrealite before His resurrection, but He is no longer of this world.

True. But your view does not take into account Paul and his ministry.

I don't see how it can't.
Besides, what we are discussing, (Jesus helping Gentiles), happened before Paul converted.

Jesus was a Jew, not an Israeli...

Judah descended from Israel.

Israel was not cast away, which makes you wrong.

It was a metaphor.
Paul used the same metaphor in Rom 11:15..."For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"

Again, Paul states clearly that Israel was not cast away, ONLY cut off. HUGE difference

"Cut off" is another metaphor for the separation of the unbelieving Israelis from the believing Israelis.

You need to stop quoting part of the links I post. It's getting annoying having to remove them from my response.

I don't know what you are referring to.

It's a result of you highlighting text instead of just clicking on the "+Quote" button at the bottom of each post.

Highlighting texts?

Either stop selecting the end of the links, or use the "+Quote" button.

What "links"?

1) Israeli is the term used for citizens of modern day Israel. They are not necessarily Jews.

Agreed, in that context.

2) It was unbelieving ISRAEL (not individual jews) who were cut off for their unbelief.

Do you really think the unbelieving "Jews" weren't also "cut off"?

3) Yes, Jesus is Lord, but it's not a matter of Jesus being their Lord (not in the same way as in the Body of Christ), but rather it's about Jesus being the promised Messiah.

I don't adhere to a gospel of division.

He also has backup plans for when things don't go according to that plan.

He knows what is coming, and can use it for His own purposes.

Wrong.
Love is needed, yes. But it shouldn't be the only thing you have.

Love can create lots of "other" things.
Charity, mercy, generosity, aide, helps, forgiveness, unity, strength, etc.
Without love, those things are in very short supply.

Are you saying God couldn't do that if He didn't have a nation to call His own?

The God can do anything He wants.

You sound like a calvinist. They try to make it sound like it's all about God maximizing His glory.

I see nothing wrong with that.
Do you?

And while they're not necessarily wrong, they're not correct, either.

I don't know enough about calvinism to judge it.

The most important thing in life is relationships. God wants a relationship with His creation. His plan was to make such a relationship possible.
But His people, who were called by His name, prevented Him from completing that plan, so He put that plan on hold, and began working on another plan, a mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, one that focuses not on corporate relationships, like with Israel, but with individual relationships. And as Paul states, He will resume his plan with Israel eventually, but not before certain requirements are met.

The original "plan" isn't over yet.

 

[steko]

@Hoping:

Yes, Exod 19:6.
I suppose God meant "holy, sanctified people" when He said priests.
Otherwise the Levites would have been unnecessary from the start.

It's called eisegesis when someone imposes their made up meaning on a text.
Exegesis is when one seeks to understand what a writer actually means in a text.
GOD said what He meant and meant what He said in EX 19:6.
He said priests/kohen. Israel will be a kingdom of priests to the nations/gentiles in the age to come.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isa 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them

 

[Nick M]

You directly implied that Paul lied when he "made the assertion" that Jesus "gave him a different mission" (to use your terminology). That's blatant heresy by ANY definition of the word! You've just thrown practically the entire Christian faith right out the window!

Reeks of genuine Nazi following. Meaning Hitler's idolatry. Don't forget, Jesus is a Jewish trick.

 

[Hoping]

@Hoping:


It's called eisegesis when someone imposes their made up meaning on a text.
Exegesis is when one seeks to understand what a writer actually means in a text.
GOD said what He meant and meant what He said in EX 19:6.
He said priests/kohen. Israel will be a kingdom of priests to the nations/gentiles in the age to come.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isa 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them

As a Gentile convert, I am glad I don't need to seek out priests to do what the Lord has equipt us to do ourselves.

 

[Rhema]

Peter declares that Paul's epistles are scripture.

Your word "other" is the wrong word.

GIGO

Not to mention that 2nd Peter is not in our canon, the ONLY canon established by an apostle.