The Gospel of the Kingdom and the plot twist.

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Where do you get that idea?
Mark 3:17-19..."And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
Also Matt 10:4.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I don't understand how anyone could use the Jerusalem council to insist the original 12a apostles never spoke to Gentiles again, despite Jesus' commands to do just that.
Especially after knowing that most were killed in foreign lands.

Not what I said.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Mark 3:17-19..."And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.
Also Matt 10:4.
And this makes you think that one of the 12 apostles that will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel is a gentile?

The far more likely case is that Simon is an Israelite from Canaan.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
And this makes you think that one of the 12 apostles that will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel is a gentile?

The far more likely case is that Simon is an Israelite from Canaan.
All I wrote was that he was a Canaanite.
That indicates to me that more than just the Israelites were hearing the words of Jesus.
The Lord Jesus would not withhold His words from anyone just on the grounds of nationality.
Though the Israelites were His main mission, everyone was invited to "come along".
Canaanites, a Syrophoenician, Samaritans, and even Romans.
 

Right Divider

Body part
All I wrote was that he was a Canaanite.
That indicates to me that more than just the Israelites were hearing the words of Jesus.
The Lord Jesus would not withhold His words from anyone just on the grounds of nationality.
Though the Israelites were His main mission, everyone was invited to "come along".
Canaanites, a Syrophoenician, Samaritans, and even Romans.
God separated Israel from the other nations. Jesus said that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The 12 apostles were all Isrealites.

Yes, gentiles could always join with Israel. That was true from way back. But things are different now via the revelation given to Paul. Paul is the apostle of the gentiles.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
It sure looked like you did.

Then you either need to get your eyes checked, or you need to pay more attention to what you read, because I meant exactly what I said, and what I said was not what you accused me of saying. Go back and read what I said again, and respond to what I actually said, rather than what you think I said. Heck, just go back and respond, with what I said in post #38 in mind, to what I said in post #33. That will save us BOTH some time.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
The Lord Jesus would not withhold His words from anyone just on the grounds of nationality.

I don't think you understand just how much Jesus didn't want to talk to the gentile woman in Matthew 15.

All you have to do to understand that is to just read it. Slowly, if you have to, but just read it:

Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. - Matthew 15:21-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:21-28&version=NKJV

Jesus ignored her the first time, refused here the second time, and only gave in and healed her daughter the third time.

She, on the other hand, in order to reach Him:
1) Recognized who He was, the Lord, the Son of David.
2) Acknowledged her position (a Gentile woman) as that being beneath Israel.
3) Told Jesus that even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the table, which shows that she acknowledges Him as "Master."

Jesus:

1) Stated clearly that His mission had nothing to do with anyone other than Israel, not to the woman, but to his disciples, who ALSO wanted her sent away.
2) Did not speak to her except through the use of an analogy, rather than just saying "go away," and in doing so, called her what was, at the time, a derogatory term for Gentile women. (Gentiles in general were "dogs" to the Israelites. Jesus used the diminuitive form, kunarion, practically insulting her to her face. Allow me to put that in context:

ho de apokritheis eipen ouk estin kalon labein ton arton ton teknon kai balein tois kunariois [Greek]

- and answering he said not it is right to take the bread of the children and to cast [it] to the little dogs [Literal]

But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." [NKJV]​

The "bread of the children" here is Jesus and His gospel of the Kingdom of Israel.
The "children" here refers to Israel.
The "little dogs" heree are Gentiles.

Thus, Jesus was literally saying that she, a little gentile dog, should not be given what is meant for the children of Israel.

It was after, and ONLY AFTER, she showed her faith, by acknowledging that she was "a little dog," and yet "even the little dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table," that Jesus relented and healed her daughter.

Of the people who had miracles done for them by Jesus, what percentage of the instances that are recorded in the Bible where Jesus performed a miracle were done to/for gentiles? Care to give a even a rough guess?
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
God separated Israel from the other nations. Jesus said that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Yet, He did minister to other nation's citizens.
The 12 apostles were all Isrealites.
Sure, if Canaanites are Israelis.
Yes, gentiles could always join with Israel. That was true from way back. But things are different now via the revelation given to Paul. Paul is the apostle of the gentiles.
Frankly speaking, I am glad he started his ministries in other cities with stops at the local synagogues to start with the Jews.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
I don't think you understand just how much Jesus didn't want to talk to the gentile woman in Matthew 15.

All you have to do to understand that is to just read it. Slowly, if you have to, but just read it:

Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. - Matthew 15:21-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:21-28&version=NKJV

Jesus ignored her the first time, refused here the second time, and only gave in and healed her daughter the third time.

She, on the other hand, in order to reach Him:
1) Recognized who He was, the Lord, the Son of David.
2) Acknowledged her position (a Gentile woman) as that being beneath Israel.
3) Told Jesus that even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the table, which shows that she acknowledges Him as "Master."

Jesus:

1) Stated clearly that His mission had nothing to do with anyone other than Israel, not to the woman, but to his disciples, who ALSO wanted her sent away.
2) Did not speak to her except through the use of an analogy, rather than just saying "go away," and in doing so, called her what was, at the time, a derogatory term for Gentile women. (Gentiles in general were "dogs" to the Israelites. Jesus used the diminuitive form, kunarion, practically insulting her to her face. Allow me to put that in context:

ho de apokritheis eipen ouk estin kalon labein ton arton ton teknon kai balein tois kunariois [Greek]​
- and answering he said not it is right to take the bread of the children and to cast [it] to the little dogs [Literal]​
But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." [NKJV]​

The "bread of the children" here is Jesus and His gospel of the Kingdom of Israel.
The "children" here refers to Israel.
The "little dogs" heree are Gentiles.

Thus, Jesus was literally saying that she, a little gentile dog, should not be given what is meant for the children of Israel.

It was after, and ONLY AFTER, she showed her faith, by acknowledging that she was "a little dog," and yet "even the little dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table," that Jesus relented and healed her daughter.

Of the people who had miracles done for them by Jesus, what percentage of the instances that are recorded in the Bible where Jesus performed a miracle were done to/for gentiles? Care to give a even a rough guess?
And yet Jesus did help the Greek/Syrophoenician, (Mark 7:24), woman's daughter.
He wasn't so narrowminded that He couldn't see that those from other nations couldn't also have faith in His grace.
He proved it again when He helped the Roman centurion's servant in Matt 8.

I think Jesus summed up His love for all men, of any nation, in John 6:37..."All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yet, He did minister to other nation's citizens.
Once again, not on an equal basis.
Sure, if Canaanites are Israelis.
Your broad-brushing is quite ridiculous. But that is exactly how people that don't believe what the Bible clearly says have to be.
Frankly speaking, I am glad he started his ministries in other cities with stops at the local synagogues to start with the Jews.
Good for you. Now believe what the Bible says.

Matt 15:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. (15:23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
And yet Jesus did help the Greek/Syrophoenician, (Mark 7:24), woman's daughter.
He wasn't so narrowminded that He couldn't see that those from other nations couldn't also have faith in His grace.
He proved it again when He helped the Roman centurion's servant in Matt 8.

I think Jesus summed up His love for all men, of any nation, in John 6:37..."All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Obviously, he helped her. That has never been in dispute. But you keep wanting to ignore the fact that He didn't WANT to help her, because, as He very clearly stated, "I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

She was not "of the House of Israel." Therefore, He had not been sent to minister to her.

By sidestepping the fact that He ignored her at first, then His own disciples wanted her sent away, then He straight up insulted her to her face, telling her that His bread wasn't meant for the Gentile dogs, you completely devalue the entire interaction He had.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Once again, not on an equal basis.
Equal?
Mercy, love, and grace, were equally distributed in this case.
Like Jesus said in John 10:16..."And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Jesus knew He was coming to more than just the Jews/Israelites.
Your broad-brushing is quite ridiculous. But that is exactly how people that don't believe what the Bible clearly says have to be.
One instance puts to bed the notion that Jesus ignored other cultures-nations.
He wants all men to be saved.
Good for you. Now believe what the Bible says.
Matt 15:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. (15:23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
I do believe what the bible says.
Matt 15:28..."Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
Faith, over nationality.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Obviously, he helped her. That has never been in dispute. But you keep wanting to ignore the fact that He didn't WANT to help her, because, as He very clearly stated, "I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

She was not "of the House of Israel." Therefore, He had not been sent to minister to her.

By sidestepping the fact that He ignored her at first, then His own disciples wanted her sent away, then He straight up insulted her to her face, telling her that His bread wasn't meant for the Gentile dogs, you completely devalue the entire interaction He had.
Faith can move mountains, and it moved the Lord to help one of the non-Israelites.
He didn't wait for Paul to meet her.
God sent Peter to the Roman Cornelius before Paul.
Philip ministered to the Ethiopian and the Samarians before Paul.
Peter and John followed shortly afterwards.
Jesus was not a one-nation Savior.
 

Rhema

Active member
Frankly speaking, I am glad he started his ministries in other cities with stops at the local synagogues to start with the Jews.
There is sufficient convincing evidence to show that Jesus' ministry extended even to the Jewish community in Spain. (The ends of the earth.)

Rhema
 

Rhema

Active member
Good for you. Now believe what the Bible says.

Matt 15:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. (15:23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
How disingenuous. Now believe what the Bible says.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​
(Matthew 15:28 KJV)​

Rhema

@Hoping
 

Rhema

Active member
By sidestepping the fact that He ignored her at first, then His own disciples wanted her sent away, then He straight up insulted her to her face, telling her that His bread wasn't meant for the Gentile dogs, you completely devalue the entire interaction He had.
Actions speak louder than silence.
 

Rhema

Active member
One instance puts to bed the notion that Jesus ignored other cultures-nations.
He wants all men to be saved.
Indeed...

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​
(1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV)​

Rhema
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
@Hoping you didn't answer my question:

Of the people who had miracles done for them by Jesus, what percentage of the instances that are recorded in the Bible where Jesus performed a miracle were done to/for gentiles? Care to give a even a rough guess?
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
How disingenuous. Now believe what the Bible says.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​
(Matthew 15:28 KJV)​

Rhema

@Hoping

Actions speak louder than silence.

Agreed, which is why it's important to read the ENTIRE context of a passage, to understand what's going on.

Merely quoting verse 28 doesn't help your point.

Go read post #48. Please explain why Jesus did what He did throughout the entire passage, rather than just quoting a single verse out of context as if that's all that's needed (because, hint hint, it's not).
 
Top