The Gospel As Per The Bronze Serpent

[turbosixx]

I was hoping you would explain what Paul meant in 1 Cor.1:17 based on context but I’ll play along for now.

seeing as how Cornelius was sealed with God's Spirit prior to water baptism (Acts 10:44-48), then I think it's safe to assume that all believers undergo the very same procedure.

I would suggest you’re not looking closely enough at this and it’s not safe to assume all are the same.

The conversion of Cornelius was a special situation. They were the first Gentile converts and God used this occasion to prove to the Jews they were to be included.

This conversion is covered in a complete long chapter and referenced by two others. That’s different than all the others. The fact that they received the Holy Spirit directly from God as evident from speaking in tongues is different from all the others. We do see one other instance but that was also a special situation, the apostles on the day of Pentecost. If you don’t believe me, look at what Peter says.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.
Just like the apostles on the day of Pentecost, from God and evident by speaking in tongues.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
If we look further in chapter 11 Peter says 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' Peter understands this to be Holy Spirit baptism just like they were told they would receive and did on Pentecost.
Acts 1:4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

These are the only two times where the scripture tells us it's Holy Spirit baptism. They received the Holy Spirit directly from God and was evident by speaking in tongues. These two look like no other conversion.

The possession of God's Spirit is paramount;

I agree. Do you have a scripture that explains how we come to possess it? Here’s mine.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

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Paul did not place a lot of emphasis on water baptism; neither should we;
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What are you basing this on? I believe he did.

Gal. 3: 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Rom. 6: 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death
Col. 2:12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him


We even see him baptizing people who had already been baptized because they weren’t baptized “in the name of Jesus”.
Acts 19:2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

That's how we call upon his name, baptism.
Look at Paul's conversion. After praying 3 days, having hands laid on him and receiving his sight what does Ananias ask him? Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay?

Was there something else for him to do? All he had left to do was be baptized.
16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

That's what makes us a Christian, being baptized into the name of Jesus.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

[WeberHome]

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Gal. 3: 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Rom. 6: 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death

Col. 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him

There's no water utilized in the mode of baptism spoken of in those passages.

FYI: Not all baptisms utilize water. For example; Yhvh's people were baptized unto Moses during the Red Sea incident (1Cor 10:1-2) yet nobody got wet, not even their feet. They all passed over dry shod.

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[WeberHome]

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● Eph 4:4-5 . .There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism

That passage has been construed by some to mean that the only religion's baptism that really counts is Christianity's ritual as per the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Well; that's a pretty good interpretation as far as it goes; and from a certain point of view is 100% correct.

However, I submit that there is another interpretation even better. Here it is.

● 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --plus we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

There is not one drop of H₂O utilized in that baptism because it isn't a ritual; instead, it is 100% thoroughly and totally supernatural; just as thoroughly supernatural as the living water Christ offered the Samaritan woman in the fourth chapter of John's gospel.

I also submit that the baptism spoken of in 1Cor 12:13 is the very same baptism spoken of in Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27, and Col 2:12

Millions of people all over the globe have been baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; both among the living and among those who have passed on. I just have to wonder how many of those people even know about the baptism of the Holy Ghost, let alone how many have actually undergone it.

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[beameup]

Many believe that a man died for their sins.

The popular religious belief is that all men are sinners.
The wages of sin is death.
So all men are condemned to die for their sins.
But many believed that by dying in place of all men,
a man redeemed all men from the condemnation of death

Scripture cannot be broken. According to the OT, No man could not die for your sins.

You do understand that sheep could be offered up for man's sins, don't you?

 

[clefty]

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It is commonly assumed that the water Christ spoke of in John 3:3-8 refers to the ritual of Christian baptism. There is no excuse for that error seeing as how the Lord explained the nature of the water to a woman of Samaria in the very next chapter.

It turns out the water isn't for bathing, rather, it is specifically for drinking.

● John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

The living water that Jesus spoke of isn't literal H₂O, rather, it's a supernatural water that gives people eternal life.

● John 4:11-14 . ."Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?" Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Bottom line: Eternal life is an essential prerequisite to passage into the kingdom of God; no exceptions; not even for infants and/or Old Testament personages because the Lord said "no one" can enter the kingdom without it.

● John 3:5 . . Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

How would an interested party go about obtaining the living water about which the Lord spoke? Well; that's actually pretty easy. You get it as Jesus instructed the woman: request it; and then go back and review post #1.
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The theif on the cross obtained salvation...without water baptism...

But had he had the chance to do so, he would have...

There remains a danger in ascribing too much power in the symbols...leads to idolatry...it wasn't the blood itself that cleansed or atoned or forgave sin it was the public act of obedience to shed it witnessed by the One Who forgives...

Circumcision itself was merely a symbol which was to represent one of the heart...but many who were circumcised still were not...

Obtaining the Spirit is by having a believing heart...the act of obedience is to demonstrate it...they were believing and obedient celebrating Pentecost and the Spirit fell...

The desire for baptism is the first fruit of the Spirit of faith through obedience...we symbolically and publicly die to self and rise anew in Him...

It is not the act itself, but the faith leading to obedience of the act...

As one can even perform the act without the faith...He despises those sacrifices and acts

Rather mercy than sacrifice...by our fruits we are known...

 

[WeberHome]

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The theif on the cross obtained salvation...without water baptism

According to Heb 9:16, the new covenant didn't become active until Christ passed away. Seeing as how that's the case, then both Jesus and the malefactor were both still under the jurisdiction of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Also; the so-called great commission as per Matt 28;18-20 wasn't enacted till after Christ's crucified body revived and his soul returned from the heart of the earth as per Ps 16:8-10, Matt 12:40, and Acts 2:25-31.

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[turbosixx]

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There's no water utilized in the mode of baptism spoken of in those passages.

How do you know?

If it’s not water, can you please explain what he means in Romans 6?
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

- FYI: Not all baptisms utilize water. For example; Yhvh's people were baptized unto Moses during the Red Sea incident (1Cor 10:1-2) yet nobody got wet, not even their feet. They all passed over dry shod.

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In this passage Paul is warning the Corinthians, so he uses the Israelites as an example.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us,

He draws as close a parallel between them and the Israelites as he can. Show he shows the Israelites were baptized and ate communion.

The Corinthians were water baptized.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
In 1 Cor. 1 we see several men had baptized them and Paul talks as if all had been baptized.
13 Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

So in chapter 10 Paul describes the Israelites water baptism by showing they were surrounded by water.
1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
He could have easily said “dry” land but he focuses on the water by saying IN the cloud and IN the sea.

He then uses the eating and drinking of communion to strengthen his argument.
3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

 

[WeberHome]

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None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him

That statement is 100% true and reliable. However, the reason why it's true is because ordinary men aren't valuable enough to pull it off. In other words; sinners cannot redeem sinners. People under the sentence of death themselves have nothing with which to barter.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

That statement is also 100% true and reliable, however, it only applies to people under the jurisdiction of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Now, if a way could be found to release Yhvh's people from that covenant, then it would become possible for one of them to sacrifice his life for the sins of others.

IMO, according to the Scriptures in the OT, it is impossible for a man to die for another man’s sins. It is impossible for a man to redeem or ransom another man from God’s condemnation of death.

Not all Scriptures all say the very same thing. For example, the 53rd chapter of Isaiah clearly speaks of someone whom God himself hand-picked to sacrifice his life for the sins of others.

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Very true, however, it only applies to people under the jurisdiction of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Now, if a way could be found to release Yhvh's people from that covenant, then it would become possible for God to justify the wicked among them.

Leviticus 27:29 No one doomed to death under the claim of divine justice, who is to be completely destroyed from among men, shall be ransomed from suffering the death penalty; he shall surely be put to death.

The death penalty spoken of in that passage refers to capital punishment, which is a horse of another color. Capital punishment under the jurisdiction of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy limits the death penalty to specific crimes; e.g. adultery, rape, incest, breaking the Sabbath, murder, assaulting one's parents, kidnapping, refusal to put an animal down that has killed someone, et al. In other words; not all violations of the covenant are capital crimes; only certain ones.

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[turbosixx]

● 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --plus we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

There is not one drop of H₂O utilized in that baptism because it isn't a ritual; instead, it is 100% thoroughly and totally supernatural; just as thoroughly supernatural as the living water Christ offered the Samaritan woman in the fourth chapter of John's gospel.

I disagree. 1 Cor. 12:13 is not being understood properly.

As I have already shown in chapter 1 and 10 the readers understood those baptisms to be water. So in chapter 12 they would see it as water and this is how they would understand it. When I was baptized in the name of Jesus (water), I was added to his church. Here is a verse that supports that claim.

Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
They were water baptized and who did the adding? The Spirit of God.

Millions of people all over the globe have been baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; both among the living and among those who have passed on. I just have to wonder how many of those people even know about the baptism of the Holy Ghost, let alone how many have actually undergone it.

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I would suggest to you there were only 2 Holy Spirit baptisms, the apostles and Cornelius. They both were directly from God and evidenced by the speaking in tongues. If you know of any other place where the bible tells us it was “baptism of the Holy Spirit” I would like to see it.

If I understand you correctly, when a person hears the gospel and believers the Holy Spirit adds them to the body. Whether they are baptized correctly, incorrectly or not at all has nothing to do with them being “baptized by the Holy Spirit” into the body.

If one is in the body, then they should be able to receive spiritual gifts by the laying of hands. If we look at this passage, that doesn’t work. They needed to be baptized in the name of Jesus. Acts 19:1-6.

These men heard the gospel and were baptized into John’s baptism. Paul then comes to town and asks them, “did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” (He’s asking about spiritual gifts and not the receiving the Holy Spirit as a seal or guarantee.) So when he finds out they hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit, he asks them, “into what were you baptized?”
My questions are why would he ask about their baptism if the Holy Spirit does the ONE baptism at belief? Why not ask about the gospel they heard or did they believe?

When he finds out it’s John’s baptism, does he go ahead and lay hands on them to give them the Holy Spirit? No.
All he does is baptize them IN THE NAME OF Jesus, then he lays hands on them.

That is how we become Christians and are added to the body, being baptized in the name of.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

[clefty]

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According to Heb 9:16, the new covenant didn't become active until Christ passed away. Seeing as how that's the case, then both Jesus and the malefactor were both still under the jurisdiction of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

I am ok with that...He was baptized (Mikva) by John before His own death...the old demanded blood and got it...now it is in force...He was its first fruits...

Also; the so-called great commission as per Matt 28;18-20 wasn't enacted till after Christ's crucified body revived and his soul returned from the heart of the earth as per Ps 16:8-10, Matt 12:40, and Acts 2:25-31.

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So?...The first covenant was to make His house a house of prayer for all nations...

It has always been one Law for Israel and the same for believing goyim...

 

[WeberHome]

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● 1Pet 3:20-22 . .In [the ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

That's a rather curious translation because Noah didn't get wet-- the Flood couldn't put even one single drop of its deadly waters on Noah all the while he and his passengers were sealed inside the ark.

Here's another translation that makes a whole lot better sense than the one above.

"the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience --through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Here's that passage with the portion between the hyphens removed.

"the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

The Greek word translated "saves" also means protect and or preserve. So we could clarify that passage even more by rendering it thus:

"the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now protects you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Now we're getting somewhere.

The baptism spoken of in 1Pet 3:20-22 has to be Spirit baptism as per 1Cor 12:13 because in order for Christ's resurrection to protect people from the wrath of God, it has to be accounted as their own resurrection as well as his.

This is extremely important because Christ's crucified body came back from death with immortality; ergo: people who've undergone the Spirit baptism spoken of at 1Cor 12:13 are reckoned crucified, resurrected, and immortal too (Rom 6:3-10, Col 2:11-12). Hence they are 100% immune to termination in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

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[Lilstu]

You do understand that sheep could be offered up for man's sins, don't you?

Sheep yes....But not people!

 

[beameup]

Sheep yes....But not people!

"Sheep" were a temporary substitute until the ultimate sacrifice of the "only Son" (God the Son)
The sacrifice of the only Son was revealed to Abraham by YHWH in Genesis 22:

And YHWH said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."