The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Gawain
Hi One Eyed Jack,

Are we doing contradictions? I've got a couple!

Exodus 6:3 has "my name Yahweh, was not known to them" (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).

According to Genesis the name "Yahweh" was well known to them.

Where does it say that in Genesis? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

There are many examples. One is in Genesis 14:22 "I have sworn to Yahweh, God Most High"

Abraham et. al. frequently used the name "Yahweh" according to Genesis.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Gawain
2Samuel 24:1 has God inciting David to take a census.

In 1Chronicles it's Satan who incites David to take a census.

Wrong. Satan provoked him, and God moved him to react. There's no contradiction there either. Got anymore?

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

Genesis 15:2 "But Abram answered, 'O Lord Yahweh'"

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

Satan provoked him

Not according to 2Samuel 24:1.

Is that your best argument on this matter?

 

[Gawain]

Genesis 26:25 "He (Isaac) built an altar there, and invoked Yahweh by name"

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

There's no contradiction there either.

Either? What are you talking about? The Exodus 6:3 (tetragrammaton) is a clear contradiction.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Gawain
Hi Jack,

Hi, Gawain.

Either?

Either.

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the fact that the Bible contains no contradictions.

The Exodus 6:3 (tetragrammaton) is a clear contradiction.

No it isn't. When Moses put the Torah together, he used words that were understood by people at the time, despite the fact that these may not have been the exact words used by the people in the events he's describing.

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

I'm talking about the fact that the Bible contains no contradictions.

I just provided two clear examples of contradictions. You're not honest enough to admit the obvious are you?

When Moses put the Torah together, he used words that were understood by people at the time, despite the fact that these may not have been the exact words used by the people in the events he's describing.

Do you have any evidence for this? It sounds like pure drivel.

Exodus 6:3 clearly contradicts Genesis. The drivel you just posted doesn't change that obvious fact.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Gawain
Hi Jack,

Hi.

I just provided two clear examples of contradictions.

No, you didn't.

You're not honest enough to admit the obvious are you?

Of course I am. Are you?

Do you have any evidence for this? It sounds like pure drivel.

How so?

Exodus 6:3 clearly contradicts Genesis.

No, it doesn't.

The drivel you just posted doesn't change that obvious fact.

I haven't posted any drivel.

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

Exodus 7:19 has Aaron extending his rod "over all of Egypt's waters. If there is no water in all of Egypt what do the magicians turn to blood?(7:22)

Exodus 8:13 has all the dirt turned to lice. On what do the magicians attempt to operate?(8:14)

How can all the cattle die from murrain (9:6) if some are later killed by hail? (9:19-21)

 

[Gawain]

Hi Jack,

How so?

We've been over this Jack. According to Exodus 6:3 Jacob et al didn't know the name "Yahweh". According to Genesis they did know the Name Yahweh.

I haven't posted any drivel.

Then you'll support "When Moses put the Torah together, he used words that were understood by people at the time, despite the fact that these may not have been the exact words used by the people in the events he's describing."?

You've got nothing right Jack?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Rational Human
Of course those arguments are pointless, seeing as how most of them revolved around the concept of god.

The pursuit of flight, and the subsequent pursuit of breeching the sound barrier. Flight was considered witchcraft and people were burned at the stake by Christains for that. Had we never gotten past the the sound barrier would never have been broken.

One of the greatest astronomers and physicists of all time, Galileo was murdered by the church for his "heretical" theory's almost all of which are today taken as truth. [The world is round and the world is not the center of the universe.]

This is the best reply you could come up with to mine? I'm a little dissapointed. This wasn't even the main point of our conversation! There was a ton more to comment on in my post that you somehow conviently forgot to mention about...

Show my post where I mentioned parallel universes.

You never said you believed in parallel universes, and if I made it seem that you did, I'm sorry. However, your belief in evolution without a creator/designer, and your belief in the big bang and big crunch theories are just as ridiculous and irrational.

Just because life was not created by god does not mean that life has no meaning. How sad and dreary your existence must be to feel that only god gives you purpose. For me, my son and faimly are my purpose. The objects that I create with my hands are my purpose. To build a wellcrafted basinet for my counsin who is expect a child soon gives me purpose and to know that the things I build will be around for generations.

My immortality is my family.

Your's is an unknown variable.

How sad for you.

I think LightSon did an excellent job of expounding on this matter. Your reply to his post was a bit rude and ungratifying; you seemed to "dodge" the whole point. You somehow missed the meaning of it. Try reading it over again, and if you could, it would be great to see a better response from you on that matter...

 

[Z Man]

By the way, I just want to throw this in here. Any atheists, agnostic, or person who does not believe in God contridicts themselves when they tell someone they love them. If God doesn't exist, neither can love.

 

[Gawain]

Hi Z Man,

If God doesn't exist, neither can love.

Do you have anything that shows that to be true?

 

[Rational Human]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
That isn't what it says. Judas hung himself, and after that he fell (either the rope broke, or the limb did) and his guts burst out when he hit the ground. There's no contradiction there.

What blatant denial. One passage clearly says that he hung himself and the other says he did not hang himself.

Maybe he captured seven thousand and only kept seven hundred. After all, horses and horsemen were relatively high-maintenance when it came ancient warfare -- only the best are worth keeping. Notice where it says he houghed (hamstrung) all the chariot horses except enough for a hundred chariots.

Fine, we'll let this one go as it could easily be a mistake in copying.

There's no contradiction here. First God made the animals, then He made man, then He made some more animals in front of man so Adam could name them. Have you got any original arguments, or does all your stuff come from atheist websites?

Genesis 1:26-27 NIV

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them

Genesis 2:15-22 NIV

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Genesis 1 shows it was man and woman first and Genesis 2 says that it was man, then animals and then woman.

And is The Bible Gateway an atheist website?

There's no contradiction here. By far, most of the animals went in by twos. So there were a few that went in by sevens. It's already been mentioned, so why mention it again in the recap?

No contradiction, huh?

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
or
GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Gen 7:2 says that only unclean animals shall be brought in by pairs where as Gen 7:8 says that all animals, clean or unclean, will be brought in by two.

Could your denial be any more transparent?

I think you're gonna have to. Most of your examples seem to mistake clarification for contradiction. I have seen any real contradictions yet.

Of course you haven't. I could post the over two hundred that I have already discussed with my rabbi, who does admit the contradictions, but you would still never loose your faith, which is not my point.

I have gone to great lengths here, and in other thraeds, to simply post my views.

While most are plesant enough there are some who happily vilify me and other atheists as irrational and illogical simply because we do not share their views.

My, how wonderfully intellectual those people must be.

Truth of the matter is that evolution is the same as faith. They are both theory and are believed in against the face of resistance because of faith. I do not agree that not believing in your god makes my life useless and void.

You may believe that, I certainly cannot change your mind, nor do I want to.

Shade and Sweet Water

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Gawain
Hi Jack,

Exodus 7:19 has Aaron extending his rod "over all of Egypt's waters. If there is no water in all of Egypt what do the magicians turn to blood?(7:22)

7:24 And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

Exodus 8:13 has all the dirt turned to lice.

That's 8:17.

On what do the magicians attempt to operate?(8:14)

That's 8:18. And the answer is dirt.

How can all the cattle die from murrain (9:6) if some are later killed by hail? (9:19-21)

I guess you're not too familiar with the use of hyperbole.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Rational Human
What blatant denial. One passage clearly says that he hung himself and the other says he did not hang himself.

I'd say you're the one in denial, because that's not what it says. Here's what it says...

from Acts:
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

From what did he fall? My guess would be the tree limb from which he hung himself.

Genesis 1 shows it was man and woman first and Genesis 2 says that it was man, then animals and then woman.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Genesis chapter one tells how God created the plants, the animals, and then man -- in that order. Genesis chapter two goes into detail about the events on the sixth day, in which God made a few more animals (some more of the same ones he'd already created) in front of Adam so he could name them. Again, there's no contradiction -- you're mistaking clarification for something else.

No contradiction, huh?

Nope. None at all.

Of course you haven't. I could post the over two hundred that I have already discussed with my rabbi, who does admit the contradictions, but you would still never loose your faith, which is not my point.

What's the point of having a rabbi if you don't believe in God?

I have gone to great lengths here, and in other thraeds, to simply post my views.

While most are plesant enough there are some who happily vilify me and other atheists as irrational and illogical simply because we do not share their views.

I'd say it's more likely that they do it because you're irrational and illogical.

My, how wonderfully intellectual those people must be.

I think BillyBob is a hoot, even though he believes in evolution. I guess some people just don't understand the redneck sense of humor.

Truth of the matter is that evolution is the same as faith. They are both theory and are believed in against the face of resistance because of faith.

You're right about that -- it has to be taken on faith, because it sure hasn't been proven. Of course, I'll place my faith in God before man any day.

I do not agree that not believing in your god makes my life useless and void.

You may believe that, I certainly cannot change your mind, nor do I want to.

Did I say that?

 

[Rational Human]

Of course not Jack. I post two completely different verses and you, of course, are to blind to see that they contradict themselves.

One says he never hung himself and you take that to mean that the limb broke so he killed himself another way.

One says very clearly that god mande man and woman then the animals while the other says that is was animals before man and woman and of coruse, no contradiction.

I do find it interesting that you ignored my thrid example. You know, the one where it says in one verse that clean animals will come to Noah's arc in sevens while unclean shall be in paris yet another verse states that "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."

No sevens mentioned in that version but again, no contradiction.

Whic I fully understand. If you admit to there being contradictions then you admit that your entire faith my abe false, so it's okay. I understand.

I have a Rabbi because he is the center of the Jewish community. Just because I am not religious does not mean that we do not have interesting religious discussions. I also volunteer time at my temple and also go to services.

Being Jewish is so much more than just a religion.

So' you''ll place your faith in god over man anyday, huh? Then come parachuting with me without a chute. I'll keep mine thank you very much.

And thanks for the "illogical and irrational" bit again.

Just proves to me what an idiot you are.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Gawain
We've been over this Jack.

No we haven't, and you haven't answered my question.

According to Exodus 6:3 Jacob et al didn't know the name "Yahweh". According to Genesis they did know the Name Yahweh.

According to God they didn't, and you've yet to show that they did. They may very well have referred to Him by His title (God) rather than His name (YWHW). Such a thing is not uncommon, considering that it's still done today.

Then you'll support "When Moses put the Torah together, he used words that were understood by people at the time, despite the fact that these may not have been the exact words used by the people in the events he's describing."?

It's an argument from common sense. I reckon that's something you lack.