The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

[Z Man]

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Originally posted by Rational Human
Only according to you.

It's a fact of life. You just refuse to believe truth.

I refuse to believe...

See what I mean?

There is numerous scientific proof assuring me that the world is older than 6000 years. This is proof enough for me the creation was a much longer process that the religious belief that it was 6 days.

I don't think it's a big deal to know exactly how old the earth is. So that's not a focus point I want to debate about.

I not only believe in the big bang theory but I also believe in the big crunch theory. This also leads me to believe that this is not the only universe that has ever existed. This is a fairly difficult concept to explain in spoken words and is even harder for to explain in text so I will have to simply let it go.

Explain this to me; what about entropy? How can life recycle itself, if entropy is a problem? I can see how life would deteriote and destroy itself or become unorderly, or chaotic, but how in the world, and by what energy, can life take order from chaos? That's what entropy teaches. It's like the contridiction in evolution. It takes energy to create oder from chaos; and for something as extremely complex as life would take a great deal of energy far surpassing anything we could comprehend...

How about you prove to me that creation took place in six days, with out using the bible as a refference source.

Like I said earlier, I don't care to debate on the length of creation; I'm more interested in discussing how everything came about. There is no way that everything just happened out of sheer coincidence; entropy teaches us that. If you want evidence that God created us, just take a look at your son. That feeling you feel in your heart is all the evidence you need. That should be a clear sign to you that we were no accident...

 

[Rational Human]

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Despite the fact that most astronomers reject the big crunch theory?

Yes, that's the beauty of being a free-willed person. I choose not to be a sheep and believe what the rest of the herd believes. Many people once believed that the earth was the center of the universe. They were proved wrong. Many people also believed the world was flat. They were proved wrong. Bleeding was once the prescribed cure for many ailments. It was said that the sound barrier would never be broken. Many scientists said that harnessing the power of the atom was foolery. All were proved wrong.

Good idea. If your attempts at explaining this are as clumsy as your explanations regarding radiometric dating, you're bound to make yourself look like a fool.

It is my opinoin, and an opinion is a personal belief which can not be wrong, even if it goes in the face of known fact. Just as it is some peoples opinion that god exists is an opinion. I do not insult nor degrade those who have it.

Opinion - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).

How about you prove to us it took however long you think it took without using any of your references?

While that would be quite easy to do with out references I do not currently have the ability to radiometriclly date anything. Besides, it's not up to me to prove any of my opinions to anyone here. I will not proselytize my beliefs to anyone and hope the same will not be done to me. I choose to believe more with my eyes, blind as they may be.

 

[Husband&Father]

It is not presumptuous to claim to know the obvious.

It is not presumptuous to claim to know the obvious.

[I think it is a tad presumtious to assume that you know…]

It is not presumptuous to claim to know the obvious. Atheists are simple to know.

[Knowing and accepting my mortality, and not hoping on some mystical afterlife allows me live each day to it's fullest without being fettered by religious laws or customs.]

You’re very self congratulatory about accepting your mortality…as if you had the option of not accepting it.

Talk about living "each day to it’s fullest" is just pop psycobabble. Sounds like a bad beer commercial I used to hear in the 70s "You only go around once in life so grab all the gusto you can get…" We all live life to "it’s fullest" some lives are filled with misery and dispare some are filled with boredom, some are filled with joy. Others are filled with distractions and entertainment and various other thrills people (atheists) use to keep themselves occupied in quest of a "full" life. Meaning less pap.

We agree that religious laws can fetter, so did Jesus, by the way. Jesus came to set people free from the law you fear would cramp your style. It may surprise you to learn that Paul said "all things are lawful unto me but not all things are expedient" That’s right Paul, one of the top ten Christians of all time, taught that Christians ARE NOT under the law. So you can use the old ruse of "religious laws" to avoid other faiths but it is no excuse for not embracing Christianity.

 

[Rational Human]

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Well, this has been circular enough arguing as it is.

Obviously we are not here to change anyone else's mind. I'll just go through my life with my beliefs and you'll go through your with yours.

 

[Z Man]

Don't be intimidated....

Don't be intimidated....

You're not even going to answer to my post?

 

[Husband&Father]

Nonsense

Nonsense

[an opinion is a personal belief which can not be wrong, even if it goes in the face of known fact.]

Actually it can. In fact the definition of wrong is "a belief that goes in the face of a known fact"

It is my personal belief that God exists. Captain Rational says that personal beliefs can not be wrong. I am right. End of debate.

Atheists must deny absolute truth, they must spout utter nonsense such as an opinion can not be wrong. Their alternative is to affirm absolute truth but then they would have to admit that absolute truth came from somewhere. They can’t do that because they claim not to believe that somewhere (God) exists.

 

[Husband&Father]

Some post here to change minds.

Some post here to change minds.

[Obviously we are not here to change anyone else's mind.]

Some are some aren’t.

 

[Husband&Father]

Rational ???

Rational ???

Mr. Rationality said:

[As for the creation of the universe, I simply choose to recognise that which is proveable.]

But then he said:

[I not only believe in the big bang theory but I also believe in the big crunch theory.]

As if they were "provable"

And when confronted with the fact that the "Big Crunch" is a breakfast cereal not a scientific theory he comes back with:

[Yes, that's the beauty of being a free-willed person. I choose not to be a sheep and believe what the rest of the herd believes.]

Rational is not a description that leaps to mind when I read Rational Human’s posts.

 

[Gerald]

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Originally posted by Husband&Father
Can man live without God? Sure, but you can’t really call it living.

What would you call it, then?

 

[One Eyed Jack]

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Originally posted by Rational Human
It is my opinoin, and an opinion is a personal belief which can not be wrong, even if it goes in the face of known fact.

Really? So Hitler's opinion that the Jews were sub-human wasn't wrong?

 

[Gerald]

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Really? So Hitler's opinion that the Jews were sub-human wasn't wrong?

If he had managed to win the big fight he started, yes, because the victor always gets to dictate terms...:chuckle:

 

[Rational Human]

Re: Nonsense

Re: Nonsense

Originally posted by Husband&Father
[an opinion is a personal belief which can not be wrong, even if it goes in the face of known fact.]

Actually it can. In fact the definition of wrong is "a belief that goes in the face of a known fact"

It is my personal belief that God exists. Captain Rational says that personal beliefs can not be wrong. I am right. End of debate.

Atheists must deny absolute truth, they must spout utter nonsense such as an opinion can not be wrong. Their alternative is to affirm absolute truth but then they would have to admit that absolute truth came from somewhere. They can’t do that because they claim not to believe that somewhere (God) exists.

Your opinion that god is true is only true to you and those who share your opinion. The main difference between you and I is that you have to have an answer for everything. "God created everything", whereas I am wise enough to know that humans do not know everything.

I utterly refuse to allow my life to be dictated by antiquated and superstisious beliefs that the world was creted in 6 days and you better have faith in jesus and god or you will spend all life in an eternity of hell.

That's nonsense to me.

 

[Rational Human]

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Really? So Hitler's opinion that the Jews were sub-human wasn't wrong?

Again, this opinion is only viewed as "true" or valid by those who share it, as we see with they Aryan Nation/White Power/Neo-Nazi" movement.

If they did not share in the philosophy then they would not emulate the Third Reich.

Perhaps I should have said that opinions are alwasy true to the opiion holder. Is that clearly worded enough?

 

[Rational Human]

Re: Some post here to change minds.

Re: Some post here to change minds.

Originally posted by Husband&Father
[Obviously we are not here to change anyone else's mind.]

Some are some aren’t.

Well, it's a waste of time to try and change mine. If 7 years of Yeshiva couldn't change mine no one on these boards will be able too.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

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Originally posted by Rational Human
Again, this opinion is only viewed as "true" or valid by those who share it, as we see with they Aryan Nation/White Power/Neo-Nazi" movement.

If they did not share in the philosophy then they would not emulate the Third Reich.

Perhaps I should have said that opinions are alwasy true to the opiion holder. Is that clearly worded enough?

Considering something to be true doesn't make it so.

 

[Rational Human]

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Considering something to be true doesn't make it so.

Exactly. Now please explain that to all you religious friends here.

My point was that an opinion is true to the opinion holder and those who share the opinion.

It is you [assumption] opinion that god exists. You believe this without positive proof, and no, a book written almost 2000 years ago does not count as proof to me.

I believe that god does not exist and all my science could never prove it to you.

Now, who's opinion is true and whos' is false?.

 

[Z Man]

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Originally posted by Gerald
If he had managed to win the big fight he started, yes, because the victor always gets to dictate terms...:chuckle:

And you atheists call us Christians sheep? Have you ever heard the phrase, "Don't jump off the bridge just because someone else did"?

At least us Christians have a perfect Sheperd; it's discouraging to know you would follow whoever dictates, whether they're wrong or not... :shocked:

 

[Z Man]

Ahem...

Ahem...

Rational Human,

I've noticed you have convientantly missed my post. Here it is again, in case you, ahem, missed it. I'll be waiting for your reply...

 

[Rational Human]

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Originally posted by Z Man
I don't think it's a big deal to know exactly how old the earth is. So that's not a focus point I want to debate about.

of course you don't want to argue this point as doing so would clearly negate you view of creation. If it can be proven that the world is older than 6000 years, as creationists argue it is, then that would also disprove your theory of creation, a major foundation block for religious belief.

Explain this to me; what about entropy? How can life recycle itself, if entropy is a problem? I can see how life would deteriote and destroy itself or become unorderly, or chaotic, but how in the world, and by what energy, can life take order from chaos? That's what entropy teaches. It's like the contridiction in evolution. It takes energy to create oder from chaos; and for something as extremely complex as life would take a great deal of energy far surpassing anything we could comprehend...

Ah yes. Attempting to bring a theory of thermodynamics into this argument. Unfortunately, this is not correct.

Second law of Thermodynamics and Evolution
On Thermodynamics, Entropy and Evolution of Biological Systems: What is Life from a Physical Chemist's Viewpoint
Entropy, God and Evolution

Read and yee shall be enlightened.

Like I said earlier, I don't care to debate on the length of creation; I'm more interested in discussing how everything came about. There is no way that everything just happened out of sheer coincidence; entropy teaches us that. If you want evidence that God created us, just take a look at your son. That feeling you feel in your heart is all the evidence you need. That should be a clear sign to you that we were no accident...

Like I said earlier, that makes sense because scientific fact wholly disproves creation myth.

The simple truth is that the 2nd law of thermodynamics does not in any way support entrophy. What is does conclusivly show is that complex elements traditionally have less energy than the energy sums of the more simpler blocks used to build it.

 

[Gerald]

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Originally posted by Z Man
At least us Christians have a perfect Sheperd; it's discouraging to know you would follow whoever dictates, whether they're wrong or not... :shocked:

Somehow, I serious doubt you'd have the guts to look down the barrel of a gun, look the shooter in the eye and tell him "I won't obey you; you'll have to kill me."