The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Singerian
Is it safe to assume that God cares more about his own pride then about the safety and well-being of his children?
Given the fact that God was humiliated in His earthly life by being born in a manger in a barn, being laughed at and mocked at for claiming to be God, and being crucified naked with two thieves all to save your wretched, filthy, unholy and unacceptable soul, makes God very arrogant, don't you agree? :rolleyes:
 

Singerian

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God didn't save my soul. Or do non-believers go to heaven too? Being humiliated rarely makes a person arrogant. In fact, it often makes them very humble. The fact that God's experience as his own son didn't relieve him of his arrogance shows how steadfastedly arrogant he really is. The question becomes: Is appeasing a beings wish for praise as high a goal as easing the suffering of others?
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Singerian
God didn't save my soul. Or do non-believers go to heaven too? Being humiliated rarely makes a person arrogant. In fact, it often makes them very humble. The fact that God's experience as his own son didn't relieve him of his arrogance shows how steadfastedly arrogant he really is. The question becomes: Is appeasing a beings wish for praise as high a goal as easing the suffering of others?
I was being sarcastic. The fact that God did come to earth as a man and go through what He did just to save human souls shows that pride is the furthest trait away from God's character...
 

Singerian

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Sorry, I should've paid attention to the rolly eyes. However, pride must be a part of God's character if this hypothetical non-Christian Mother Theresa would be damned for the simple crime of not recognizing the Crusifixion.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Skeptic How do you know this? Do you have first hand experience of what it is like in heaven? Or is this just what you HOPE for?
Please try to keep in mind that the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing: foolishness. Also, unless you are in a relationship with The Holy Spirit, the following will also be meaningless:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for The Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 

prodigalson

New member
Skeptic, there is no point responding to your post. Yeah, Heaven will not have God there, and yeah, God will be outdone by Earthly Euphorias. Is common sense too much to ask?

It's not pride Sing, it's what God deserves and what humans deserve. God for being God deserves to be worshiped b/c he is God, and if humans spit in the face of a Holy God, they deserve His wrath. These concepts shuldn't be that hard to except, even my most anti-God friends at least except these things to be true.
 

Nova

New member
Originally posted by RogerB
What do you find futile and depressing about an eternal life in heaven?

I'm not alluding to the idea of heaven but basically the implication that if humans find god harsh and unjust it doesn't matter, people should just accept that and still worship him and not be concerned about it or the trillions of people suffering in hell.
when I believed in Christianity it really bothered me that a lot of other Christians didn't seem to have a problem with the idea of people like Mother Theresa or some Buddhist who lived a life of compassion being tossed into the lake of fire, that seems pretty sadistic to me. I don't think most Christians are awful people though, even fundamentalists, but I don't believe anyone, not even Hitler deserves Eternal torment...and the idea that Christians tend to believe that EVERYONE deserves eternal torment when we didn't even ask to be born, i don't see any good reason why god would make the 'original sin' of Adam and Eve a hereditary disease, that means we are suffering the consequences of someone else's mistake. I think if god were truly loving and just as the Bible claims he would judge people based on their attitude and how they lived their lives above all else. The idea that someone like Jerry Falwell deserves eternal heaven and Ghandi should burn in hell just doesn't make sense.
 

LightSon

New member
Originally posted by Singerian
God didn't save my soul. ..... Is appeasing a beings wish for praise as high a goal as easing the suffering of others?

Your question offers a false dilemma.

On the matter of pride: The One who spoke all things into existence is worthy of all praise and adoration. Those created beings who seek to take His place are prideful. When we think more highly of ourselves than we ought, we are prideful. God cannot be prideful, in that He deserves every ounce of reverence we can muster. God cannot think more highly of Himself than He ought, because He is as High and Mighty as is possible to be.

This same God seeks to erase your suffering (assuming you have any) and to bring you into an eternal state of bliss with him. God has provided a way for you to come to Him which will not violate His own integrity. Instead of falling on your face in reverent gratitude and embracing Christ, you mock Him. Perhaps your mocking is a well-honed habit after too much exposure to the truth. You seem to expect that God will naturally recognize what a worthy creature you are and that He will let you trample over sacred things with impugnity at your most prideful behest.

God has made eternal provision for all suffering to be erased at an individual level. He made this provision at great cost to Himself. Is it His fault that man won't take advantage of it?

You seem to think God and the sufferings of Christ are a game.

You may have a few years left, so mock on. Or you can choose to surrender to Him now. It's your choice. When the end comes, you will know it was not a game.
 
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Aimiel

Well-known member
Its like this, at the end of the day, when I lock my door, my family is allowed inside my house. If someone comes to the door, and knocks on it, even saying, "I am a good guy, I shovel my elderly next-door neighbor's sidewalk and NEVER cut anybody off on the freeway," I am not going to recognize his 'right,' to be in my house; because I don't know him. It is the same with God. He will say to MANY (even to many professing 'Christians') on that day, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." They will be saddened, and remember the times they rejected God's Spirit of Truth.
 

Singerian

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I understand the temptation to use high brow phrases like "false dilemma," but surely one should wait until a false dilemma is actually presented. In fact, the only false dilemma is in suggesting that we, to be right, must choose between praising God and denying Creation. This scenario assumes that our ethics are not consequentialist. From the utilitarian perspective, it is only good to praise God(relative to easing the suffering of others) if praising God yields better results. I have seen not even an implication that praising God will yield better results than easing the suffering of others in the way that Mother Theresa did.

I have no special pride. Unlike Christians, I don't suggest I am of the image of such a great thing as God. In not giving God props, I may be hurting myself for eternity, but I am in know way hurting others. Similarly, Mother Theresa's actual relationship with God needn't have had any bearance on her actions. Atheists have accomplished similar feats.

God can't be responsible for all the good that men do without being responsible for their failure to do good. Either acceptance of God is a choice or it's not. If it isn't, God may deserve praise and insult. If it is, He deserves neither.

I don't think God is a game. I think it's a fiction. The sufferings of Jesus I believe to be very real and unfortunate.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Zakath And I'm sure the way you've chosen seems right to you, eh FG7?
No, sometimes it seems too hard, but I heard someone say, one day, listening to a rather direct and hard-hitting sermon, "It's tight, but its right." That helps me to accept The Word of God, especially when it seems harsh on my flesh, and so I have remembered it.
Want to bet me that you're not going to end up dead someday? :chuckle:
Actually, for those of us who believe God's Promises, we are told that we will only pass through 'the valley of the shadow of death,' and I have actually never heard of a case of anyone ever being bitten by the shadow of a dog, so I am not worried about death. I have an endless hope, not a hopeless end, as those who must partake of the second death do.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Singerian I have seen not even an implication that praising God will yield better results than easing the suffering of others in the way that Mother Theresa did.
Actually, we are told to thank God in everything. Not FOR everything, since He only gives good gifts. Our praise and worship, especially when we are beaten down by life's circumstances, opens the windows of Heaven, and gives God license to bless us. He inhabits the praises of His people, and I want God to be as close to me as possible. There are a lot of wolves out there, and the blessings and goodness are just pouring off of God; I would love to have more of them spilling onto me. Sometimes I can't see how He could possibly bless me more, but He always likes to out-do Himself. That's just the way He is.
I have no special pride. Unlike Christians, I don't suggest I am of the image of such a great thing as God. In not giving God props, I may be hurting myself for eternity, but I am in know way hurting others.
We are told that men are made in God's Image and Likeness, and that God is conforming us to The Image of His Son; to say anything less would be a lie. God does not NEED props, but I believe that the praise men give Him does lift Him up. Also, in Heaven, He has to be lifted up, because everyone wants to be able to see Him, at all times, and there is always a big crowd around the throne; so being High and Lifted Up is a good thing for the spectators, too (actually we're participators in Heaven, when we praise and worship Him).
I don't think God is a game. I think it's a fiction. The sufferings of Jesus I believe to be very real and unfortunate.
His ressurrection and His ascension into Heaven are very real, too. There were probably more witnesses to His ascension, than to His crucifixion. I am a witness that He is alive. He lives in me. Also, His Words are Spirit and they are Life, to them that find Them.
 

Singerian

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People often create other personalities in their minds. When Christians do it, they working from the same cookbook.

When we say that praising God "lifts him up," we are speaking figuratively. Applying spacial significance is not impressive.

Again, praising God may give God license to bless you, but that does nothing for others. The debate is over who is more beneficial, the average slob with a licence to be blessed or a Godless Mother Theresa character.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Singerian People often create other personalities in their minds. When Christians do it, they working from the same cookbook.

When we say that praising God "lifts him up," we are speaking figuratively. Applying spacial significance is not impressive.
God is not trying to impress you, He is trying to explain to you what praising Him is and what it does. That is how you can come to an understanding of Him, by listening to someone writing to you using His Understanding and His Spirit. He says, "Come, let us reason together." He wants to reason together with you.
Again, praising God may give God license to bless you, but that does nothing for others. The debate is over who is more beneficial, the average slob with a licence to be blessed or a Godless Mother Theresa character.
Faith without works is dead faith. If some 'slob' is only giving God lip-service, he already has all the reward he will ever get, the 'feelings' he gets from praising; but that is not all that God looks at. He does not see in a limited way like we do. He sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, He knows our motives behind every single word we say. He knows where we are coming from, and He knows our destiny.
 

Z Man

New member
Originally posted by Singerian
People often create other personalities in their minds. When Christians do it, they working from the same cookbook.

When we say that praising God "lifts him up," we are speaking figuratively. Applying spacial significance is not impressive.

Again, praising God may give God license to bless you, but that does nothing for others. The debate is over who is more beneficial, the average slob with a licence to be blessed or a Godless Mother Theresa character.
Singerian,
Christians do not "praise" God to seek favor or to make Him look good or whatever; we praise Him because we love Him.

Praise happens everyday, and everyone does it. What do you do to the person you fall in love with? What do you say about the team you pull for? How do you describe the car of your dreams? Humans praise what they love; it's no different when humans love God. We praise Him.
 

Singerian

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I'm not suggesting that Christians do no good works. I'm saying that the good works of the average Christian don't compare to those of Mother Theresa. I suggest that even a Godless Mother Theresa is more decent than the average Christian. Even if you measure goodness in terms of the degree to which God is pleased, doesn't it make God selfish that he would rather be praised than see the suffering of his children be eased? Or is the amount of "god lifting" the average Christian does greater in terms of human benefit than what Mother Theresa did minus any god lifting?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Mother Theresa's Legacy

Mother Theresa's Legacy

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I agree that your 'average' Christian has a lot to learn about charity. Becoming a Christian does not make one perfect, just forgiven.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God tells us that we have to work out our salvation; I believe that means that we have to listen to Him, and submit to the chastening of His Word. Many Christians only give Him 'lip-service.' Many more follow Him, and yet don't go around bragging about their good works, since we are told to let another's lips praise us, and not our own. The best prayer we are able to pray is done in our 'prayer closet.' The publican, who loves the praise of men, is not after God's Heart, but his own vanity.
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
WOW! That's a big ball of dung, Shima! Good job!

WOW! That's a big ball of dung, Shima! Good job!

Shima-
And basically, that is what reincarnation is about. Everybody gets the chance to get it right, but untill you DO get it right you are stuck on this earth, doomed to repeat those mistakes untill the impact of it finally gets through to you.
From that response, the great mystical spirit of the universe has told me you are not ready to get it all right. So you have to come back as a Poop Beetle and start working your way up again.

Start pushing!
Heb. 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
 
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