The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

[shima]

famousGandalf7:
>>If you aren't a Christian, you are a slave of the devil, who is a hard task-master. <<

Absolute NONSENSE. Sin was NOT created by the Devil you know. Sin is, according to the bible, what humanity brought upon themselves.

>>There are many forms of Satan-worship, and all who are un-godly commit their lives to Satan, whether they know it or not.<<

So, how do you KNOW that the God you worship isn't the Devil? If others cannot make that distinction, then you cannot eitherl. Perhaps the Devil is posing as God (I would if I were the Devil) to claim as many believers as possible. Considdering the rather inhumane actions performed in the name of God through the ages, I woulnd't be very surprised if this is the case.

>>Well, for one thing, using witchcraft always backfires on the 'magician<<

That rather depends for what purpose the user uses his power doesn't it. If a magician uses his power to help those in need, then sure it backfires and he receives their love and friendship in return. Just like hatred eventually sows the destruction of the hater, so does love sow the happyness of the lover.

 

[Gerald]

Re: Nonsense is Not Sensible

Re: Nonsense is Not Sensible

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
We just haven't gotten together and done so, yet. As we begin to pool our resources and create a global game-plan, we are about to begin sweeping this planet with the light of this Glorious Gospel and take back what rightfully belongs to Jesus, rulership of this planet.

::Flips on Way-Back Machine, dials a Tale From Gerald's Mis-Spent Youth::
Hmmm, reminds me of a time I came into conflict with a fundy who expressed similar aspirations. This is one of those conflicts of "that magnitude" that we've discussed.

After a bit of sanctimonious back-and-forth, I posed to him the question "Do you believe God will deliver you from the righteous butt-kicking you are about to receive?"

His response was very interesting. He assumed a prayerful demeanor for a moment, then lowered his hands to his sides, looked me in the eye and said with the vehemence of the zealot: "Yes."

You can probably guess what happened next, fG7, given what you've learned about me...
::grins evilly::
:angel:

 

[Gerald]

Re: Gerald, Get with It, Man

Re: Gerald, Get with It, Man

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
Didn't you see, "Matrix?" The one little kid in that movie told 'our hero' (Keenau Reeves) that the spoon wasn't the thing, there is no spoon. It is your mind that gets bent.

GET BENT!!!

[Moe Howard]

I'll bend you, ya knucklehead!

C'mere, gimme yer neck!

[/Moe Howard]

 

[Aimiel]

Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Originally posted by shima Sin was NOT created by the Devil you know.

Oooops, yes it was, thought I did not say so, nor did I imply it. He is a liar, has been from the beginning, and is the father of lying; hence, the originator of sin.

So, how do you KNOW that the God you worship isn't the Devil?

Many, many convincing and un-deniable proofs. How do you know you are not Satan's slave?

If others cannot make that distinction, then you cannot eitherl.

You're confused, I never said they couldn't make any perceptions. Most of them aren't trying to be honest about themselves, or others (sound familiar?) and the work that the devil is doing in their lives is not evident to them, because of the fact that they have the same personality and character as their father.

Perhaps the Devil is posing as God (I would if I were the Devil) to claim as many believers as possible.

Right, this was his idea, in Heaven, before he fell.

Considdering the rather inhumane actions performed in the name of God through the ages, I woulnd't be very surprised if this is the case.

Well, often he brings even Christians memory of certain Bible verses, with twisted motives, to try to lead them astray.

That rather depends for what purpose the user uses his power doesn't it.

A very common claim of 'white witches,' which doesn't wash. The Bible teaches that witchcraft is an abomination. It doesn't say, "Just make sure you use your witchcraft for good."

If a magician uses his power to help those in need, then sure it backfires and he receives their love and friendship in return.

You would think, but since using witchcraft is sin, it just backfires all the time.

Just like hatred eventually sows the destruction of the hater, so does love sow the happyness of the lover.

Now that is really trying to reason apples into oranges. Yes, if you do good you will receive good. Witchcraft is not good, so there is bad consequences. Can't you see the fuzzy logic going on here? This is to clear to be confused about.

 

[Gerald]

Re: Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Re: Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
Many, many convincing and un-deniable proofs.

Then you should have no trouble presenting, oh, three dozen or so. I'll wait...

How do you know you are not Satan's slave? You're confused, I never said they couldn't make any perceptions. Most of them aren't trying to be honest about themselves, or others (sound familiar?) and the work that the devil is doing in their lives is not evident to them, because of the fact that they have the same personality and character as their father.

Hey, at least I'm honest enough to say that, if he existed, I'd be one of his top agents...

 

[Aimiel]

In the observance of fellowship week I respectfully decline your invitation to call you what I see you to be... for now. Who knows maybe the restraint will teach me a lesson, and perhaps you as well. Maybe you have not read the proverb I quote: it's verse nineteen from chapter ten. Look below \/

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Re: Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Re: Re: Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Originally posted by Gerald Then you should have no trouble presenting, oh, three dozen or so. I'll wait...

Oh, I'm sorry, if you want proof you have to believe in God:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Believing is seeing, not the other way around. I see God in my life because of the things that I have believed, which He proclaimed. I take Him at His Word. He has never let me down yet. If I waited to see Him BEFORE I believed Him, I would be just like you, and be making Him out to be a liar, which He can not be.

Hey, at least I'm honest enough to say that, if he existed, I'd be one of his top agents...

That is far from honest, but it is a mighty hefty claim. There are a lot of Christians alive on this planet, and there are more than just a few who do far better than I imagine you would, should you get saved.

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by famousGandalf7


In the observance of fellowship week I respectfully decline your invitation to call you what I see you to be...for now.

Then I eagerly await the end of Fellowship Week, so we can draw our long knives and tear into each other like proper foes...

 

[Gerald]

Re: Re: Re: Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Re: Re: Re: Good = Evil, Evil = Good

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
That is far from honest, but it is a mighty hefty claim. There are a lot of Christians alive on this planet, and there are more than just a few who do far better than I imagine you would, should you get saved.

Well, that won't happen, so you'll never know...

 

[mindlight]

THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC, EMPERICAL PROOF OF GOD'S EXISTENCE - SO STOP ASKING FOR IT....OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You win.

I do not concede this point. Many of the various ancient texts we have viewed are proofs of the existence of the Christian God but only to those who view them with faith.

As with Jesus Parables the proof is there but only for those with eyes to see. All Creation is empirical proof of the existence of God and human history to boot. There are those who choose to look no deeper than the experience of Creation to the why of it.

Scripture, the church etc are all empirical proofs of the existence of God as is the survival of the Jewish race down 3,000 years of persecution in my view.

That Zakath does not get this is his problem - he does not have faith and he does not know God - so he never sees things as they really are. He is useful and he is used by God to sharpen up Christian awareness of the questions surrounding the use of source evidence and in that respect he is welcome on TOL in my view. I would like to see him saved but currently get the impression he has chosen to refuse Gods gift. I believe God can save Him even now but that is for God to do as He wills he has refused the voice of Gods messengers so many times I wonder if he has become numbed to their sound.

 

[Aimiel]

Let's Sober Up

Let's Sober Up

I believe that every man on this earth has been given the same amount of faith. Their eternal destiny hinges upon what they do with it. I also believe that when we get to Heaven and all things are laid bare, we will be surprised to see how many 'atheists,' etc. will be so ashamed of being ignorant, and bullying their own conscience into silence, so many times.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." -- Romans 12:3

 

[shima]

famousgandalf7:
>>Many, many convincing and un-deniable proofs. How do you know you are not Satan's slave?<<

In the same way.

>>You're confused, I never said they couldn't make any perceptions. Most of them aren't trying to be honest about themselves, or others (sound familiar?) and the work that the devil is doing in their lives is not evident to them, because of the fact that they have the same personality and character as their father.<<

So people who ARE honest about themselves are not the devils tool while those who aren't honest are the devils tool? Hmmm, it seems that a lot of christians are the devils tool then.

>>Well, often he brings even Christians memory of certain Bible verses, with twisted motives, to try to lead them astray.<<

The motives of these verses are right there in the bible. The devil cannot twist them because they are already writen down. What I was talking about is that the God of the Old Testament is the devil, in which case the motives fit his personality.

>>A very common claim of 'white witches,' which doesn't wash. <<

Actually, it DOES wash. Just like wielding any type of power brings along responsibility, so does wicca or witchcraft bring responsibility. OFcourse, if someone using it cannot handle that resonsibility, then he shouldn't be using it. But that goes for ALL kinds of power, not just witchcraft. And ofcourse the bible would teach that witchcraft is from the devil because the bible doesn't want any other authority than God being proclaimed "good". IN the eyes of the bible, ALL other authorities are per definition "evil", and thus so must witchcraft be.

>>You would think, but since using witchcraft is sin, it just backfires all the time.<<

Absolute nonsense. The use of witchcraft backfires only when put to evil use. It doesn't backfire when used to help people.

>>Now that is really trying to reason apples into oranges. Yes, if you do good you will receive good. Witchcraft is not good, so there is bad consequences. Can't you see the fuzzy logic going on here? This is to clear to be confused about.<<

Witchcraft is witchdraft. Wether it is "good" or "evil" depends on how you USE it. After all, guns for example are NOT evil, but there are evil people using them.

Actually, it is YOU who are confused about witchcraft. Witchcraft is power, much like politics and weapons are all about power. They are tools, and as such are not evil of themselves. Only ther person using it could be "good" or "evil".

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by shima So people who ARE honest about themselves are not the devils tool while those who aren't honest are the devils tool? Hmmm, it seems that a lot of christians are the devils tool then.

Man, you got that right. I've sat next to TOO MANY of them in the pews, too.

The motives of these verses are right there in the bible. The devil cannot twist them because they are already writen down.

That is a PERFECT LIE. There are many ways the devil will use scripture to confuse and to mis-lead unsuspecting Christians. Mis-quoting is one, quoting a scripture at just the wrong moment is another, putting two non-related scriptures together with illogical premises is another and saying that "The devil cannot twist them because they are already writen down," is probably the most subtle and demonic one I have ever heard. You have to be pretty twisted to come up with that one.

What I was talking about is that the God of the Old Testament is the devil, in which case the motives fit his personality.

Spoken like a true enemy of the One True Righteous God.

Actually, it DOES wash. Just like wielding any type of power brings along responsibility, so does wicca or witchcraft bring responsibility. OFcourse, if someone using it cannot handle that resonsibility, then he shouldn't be using it. But that goes for ALL kinds of power, not just witchcraft. And ofcourse the bible would teach that witchcraft is from the devil because the bible doesn't want any other authority than God being proclaimed "good". IN the eyes of the bible, ALL other authorities are per definition "evil", and thus so must witchcraft be.

Witchcraft is power, much like politics and weapons are all about power. They are tools, and as such are not evil of themselves. Only ther person using it could be "good" or "evil".

Nice reasoning. I don't believe that it is scriptural, or necessarily right, but you seem to be getting the idea. The one thing you (and everyone else who promotes / practices witchcraft) forget is: the devil is not walking around, like, "Oh, I'm the devil, I'm evil; watch out for me." No, he is subtle, and the witches are very, very surprised by him when they are assigned their torment in hell. And here they thought they were going to rule. It's just not gonna' happen... the demons were told the same story. They fell for it, too.

Absolute nonsense. The use of witchcraft backfires only when put to evil use. It doesn't backfire when used to help people.

Absolute LIE!!! The witches who have used witchcraft down through the ages have never brought any good to us. Nothing good can come from an evil tree.

Witchcraft is witchdraft. Wether it is "good" or "evil" depends on how you USE it.

No, all witchcraft is EVIL:

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

After all, guns for example are NOT evil, but there are evil people using them.

But guns are not forbidden in the Bible; except to say: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -- Matthew 26:52. I believe that guns are a type of sword.

Actually, it is YOU who are confused about witchcraft.

WRONG. My Father is not the author of confusion, as yours is. He is very clear about it, and He does not lie, as your father does to you, and to everyone. He invented lying.

 

[Z Man]

Re: Let's Sober Up

Re: Let's Sober Up

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
I believe that every man on this earth has been given the same amount of faith. Their eternal destiny hinges upon what they do with it. I also believe that when we get to Heaven and all things are laid bare, we will be surprised to see how many 'atheists,' etc. will be so ashamed of being ignorant, and bullying their own conscience into silence, so many times.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." -- Romans 12:3

Please remember FG7, you nor I nor anybody else in this world for that matter, is no better than any atheists that post on this site. Our eternal desitiny is not up to us. If so, because you chose God and some atheist dosn't, that makes you "smarter", or "better", than them. This is just not so. All of us are like filthy rags in front of God. People don't go to hell because they reject God; they go there because of their sins. The verse you used in the above post I quoted from you is in direct opposition to the tone of the post you used it for. Be careful that God's grace dosn't go to your head. He didn't save you because you're handsome....

Besides, it's Fellowship Week; be nice!

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Re: Let's Sober Up

Re: Re: Let's Sober Up

Originally posted by Z Man Please remember FG7, you nor I nor anybody else in this world for that matter, is no better than any atheists that post on this site. Our eternal desitiny is not up to us. If so, because you chose God and some atheist dosn't, that makes you "smarter", or "better", than them. This is just not so. All of us are like filthy rags in front of God. People don't go to hell because they reject God; they go there because of their sins. The verse you used in the above post I quoted from you is in direct opposition to the tone of the post you used it for. Be careful that God's grace dosn't go to your head. He didn't save you because you're handsome....

Besides, it's Fellowship Week; be nice!

I am being nice. I am expressing what I feel without 'bullying' or namecalling. I am only trying to convey the Truth that when we make a 'decision for Christ,' (which I consider to be His Decision) we are the ones who are putting His Faith to work to do what He decided to with our destiny. We aren't able to escape, being pre-destined. We don't have any 'special tools' that everyone on this earth has. We are only fulfilling His Prophecy, which He spoke over our lives (each and every one of us, individually) before the foundation of the earth. I wasn't trying to convey that I was smarter, better or more handsome (I am one of the ugliest men I know) than anyone else. I know that without Christ, I am, of all men, the most miserable.

Please teach me: what tone are you referring to? I didn't intend to sound harsh or to be derisive with my previous post. I don't want to offend, but to teach, admonish and edify.

 

[Z Man]

Re: Re: Re: Let's Sober Up

Re: Re: Re: Let's Sober Up

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
Please teach me: what tone are you referring to? I didn't intend to sound harsh or to be derisive with my previous post. I don't want to offend, but to teach, admonish and edify.

Ok... This is what you said:

I believe that every man on this earth has been given the same amount of faith. Their eternal destiny hinges upon what they do with it. I also believe that when we get to Heaven and all things are laid bare, we will be surprised to see how many 'atheists,' etc. will be so ashamed of being ignorant, and bullying their own conscience into silence, so many times.

But this is what I read:

Atheists are going to hell because they are stupid. I'm not because I was smart enough to use faith to my advantage. Haha!

Seriously, you said that everyone has the same oppurtunity to get to heaven:

I believe that every man on this earth has been given the same amount of faith. Their eternal destiny hinges upon what they do with it.

Then you turn around and say Atheists are stupid for not using this oppurtuinity to their advantage.

I also believe that when we get to Heaven and all things are laid bare, we will be surprised to see how many 'atheists,' etc. will be so ashamed of being ignorant

This makes you out to be some kind of Einstein because you are saved. To me, this is silly.

For one, you didn't choose God, He choose you. And it wasn't because you're smart, or good-looking, or better than anyone else, or whatever, it's because He loves you and your salvation somehow fits into His "big plan".

Also, God may save any atheists He sees fit, but if He dosn't, they will continue to disbelieve, no matter what we do. Our job is to just plant the seeds. It's God's job to water them and help them to grow as He sees fit. We can continue to debate with them as long as we wish, but we must not damage our own seeds that we planted. We can't save them, so sometimes it's just best to back off and let God do His work in them.

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Sober Up

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's Sober Up

Originally posted by Z Man But this is what I read: Atheists are going to hell because they are stupid. I'm not because I was smart enough to use faith to my advantage. Haha!

Well, I did not mean to sound like that. I know that all things will be laid bare, and sought to give the insight of one who has made many 'ignorant blunders,' similar to these ones, that you are pointing out; and many far worse. I would never have learned anything in my entire life, if God had not decided to chasten me. I heard someone say one time, about a particularly insightful sermon, "It's tight, but it's right." I believe that anyone who accepts Christ is wise, but don't think that I am any 'holier' than the homeless that I share the Gospel with, as well as Satanists; or my fellow-Christian, for that matter. Neither do I believe that anyone should brag, except we boast about Our Lord.

Seriously, you said that everyone has the same oppurtunity to get to heaven: Then you turn around and say Atheists are stupid for not using this oppurtuinity to their advantage.

I believe that Romans, 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith," means that we are all endowed with the same measure of faith. The testing of our faith transcends intelligence and stature; as well as anything which might be occuring in our lives. He reaches the hearts of men, but no, I don't believe that every man has been given the SAME opportunity to get to heaven. If we had preached this Gospel of The Kingdom to the whole world by now, we'd already be home. I also know that God knows how to save those whose names are already written in His Book, from the foundation of the earth. I have heard many stories of people who have been saved from their life of sin and called to become saved, without being preached to, or ever even HEARING the Good News. Many saying things like, "I just knew in my heart that I needed to ask Jesus to save me from my sins."

This makes you out to be some kind of Einstein because you are saved. To me, this is silly.

Basically, God doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called. I don't think I am special, but maybe I ought to make my choice of wording and expressions of my heart more clear.

Thank you. I agree with what you say, but I also want to say that I appreciate taking the time and, so clearly, explaining your take on my words. It meant a lot to me. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

 

[Z Man]

You're welcome. :thumb:

 

[shima]

>>I do not concede this point. Many of the various ancient texts we have viewed are proofs of the existence of the Christian God but only to those who view them with faith.<<

"Proofs" which require "faith" to see are NOT called "proof". Proof would be those things that do NOT require any particular faith to see, other than believing the evidence of your own eyes. Since that proof doesn't exists, the rest of you point is rather moot.

>>As with Jesus Parables the proof is there but only for those with eyes to see. All Creation is empirical proof of the existence of God and human history to boot. There are those who choose to look no deeper than the experience of Creation to the why of it. Scripture, the church etc are all empirical proofs of the existence of God as is the survival of the Jewish race down 3,000 years of persecution in my view.<<

It is not empirical proof, because proof doesn't require FAITH. When something requires faith to be able to be "seen", it is never proof of anything. It is called a "delusion".

Since there are many faiths in the world, would that mean that they are all correct? Ofcourse you say "no" because the bible explicitly tells you that. However, based on the "proof" of faith, all these religions are CORRECT. Now, this is a contradiction within the bible itself, and therefore the reasoning from "faith" is wrong.

>>That Zakath does not get this is his problem - he does not have faith and he does not know God - so he never sees things as they really are. He is useful and he is used by God to sharpen up Christian awareness of the questions surrounding the use of source evidence and in that respect he is welcome on TOL in my view. I would like to see him saved but currently get the impression he has chosen to refuse Gods gift. I believe God can save Him even now but that is for God to do as He wills he has refused the voice of Gods messengers so many times I wonder if he has become numbed to their sound.<<

There are very many people who actually DO get the point you are trying to make, but simply know that you are WRONG. Faith isn't proof, anymore than faith is proof that Wodan, Thor or Zeus exist. Why would your god be any different from the others? After all, if "faith" is "proof" then there is PROOF that they exist.

 

[RogerB]

ignorant = unaware, uninformed

stupid = slow mind; given to unintelligent decisions or acts

I think fG7 was right on when he predicted that many atheists "will be so ashamed of being ignorant" - at least that's what they will proclaim. And that's what makes it all the more sad: most of the atheists here are intelligent people, they just bully their own conscience into silence when it comes to God.

Keep up the good fight, fG7. I'm learning a lot from you.