"The End of the World(TM)"?

[Derf]

I forgot I'm on the "We know it all forum".

I realize it's more important to hash out if God can lie or not. After all, man can show everyone just how intelligent he is.

What? You talk about my thread in a different thread, but don't tag me?

 

[JudgeRightly]

What? You talk about my thread in a different thread, but don't tag me?

That would be my fault. I moved the OP and a few other posts from that thread into this new one.

 

[glorydaz]

What? You talk about my thread in a different thread, but don't tag me?

My bad.
I don't remember tagging people in the past, nor did I bother to see who started the thread...moved or not.


I'm wondering why everyone seems to think I'm "accusing" them of stuff. Very odd.

Chill out people. I come in peace.

 

[Derf]

My bad.
I don't remember tagging people in the past, nor did I bother to see who started the thread...moved or not.


I'm wondering why everyone seems to think I'm "accusing" them of stuff. Very odd.

Chill out people. I come in peace.

No problem. Just thought it odd to come across a comment about one of my threads.

People are a bit overly sensitive sometimes.

 

[glorydaz]

Again... this is incomplete. In other words, it has not yet happened.

There is still a great deal of the "land that God gave unto their fathers" that is in the possession of nations and peoples other than Israel. There are still a great many Jews scattered around the world.

Again you pick a few verses that you like and ignore the rest.

Read Ezekiel 36 again.

The entire prophecy concerning the dry bones (returning in unbelief), and then being given the breath of life in Ezekiel 37 which occurs when the Jews accept their Messiah during the tribulation speaks to this issue. I'm not ignoring anything, RD. There is just so much speaking of Israel's return in the last days, I'm not sure where to start. I'm just a pupil of Bible prophecy...have been for many years.

 

[Right Divider]

The entire prophecy concerning the dry bones (returning in unbelief),

Please make a case for this idea. Why do you think that the "dry bones" refers to a "regathered Israel in unbelief"? I don't see that anywhere.

and then being given the breath of life in Ezekiel 37 which occurs when the Jews accept their Messiah during the tribulation speaks to this issue.

Again, make a case for this instead of just claiming it.

There is just so much speaking of Israel's return in the last days, I'm not sure where to start.

Start anywhere.

I'm just a pupil of Bible prophecy...have been for many years.

So do you think that you're the only one that studies Bible prophecy?

Ezek 37:11 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:11) ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Do you think that "the whole house of Israel" is already in the land in the middle east?

Ezek 37:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

This sounds more like the resurrection of the people of Israel (the believers).

Ezek 37:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (37:22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (37:23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (37:24) And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Do they have "one king" per Ezek 37:22? Do you think that "David my servant" is currently "king over them"?

 

[Tambora]

I'm not sure where to start.

We could start with what Jesus and the NT writers say the kingdom is like.
That would make a nice study thread to build upon.

 

[glorydaz]

Please make a case for this idea. Why do you think that the "dry bones" refers to a "regathered Israel in unbelief"? I don't see that anywhere.

Again, make a case for this instead of just claiming it.

Start anywhere.

So do you think that you're the only one that studies Bible prophecy?

Ezek 37:11 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:11) ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Do you think that "the whole house of Israel" is already in the land in the middle east?

Ezek 37:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

This sounds more like the resurrection of the people of Israel (the believers).

Ezek 37:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (37:22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (37:23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (37:24) And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Do they have "one king" per Ezek 37:22? Do you think that "David my servant" is currently "king over them"?

I think the dry bones shown to Ezekiel is referring to the Nation of Israel. First scattered for centuries, then gathered as a nation as we see Israel today. They have sinew and flesh, but they are not worshipping their Messiah. Thus, they have no spirit or life. That will come near the end of the Tribulation, as I see it, when the remnant will be saved, and then spilling into the Millennium.

 

[glorydaz]

We could start with what Jesus and the NT writers say the kingdom is like.
That would make a nice study thread to build upon.

There we go. A great topic needing division. Are we talking about the Kingdom on Earth or in Heaven?

 

[glorydaz]

Israel is at the heart of the Bible, if you stop and think about it.

Now, they are a nation. They are practicing Jews, still speaking the Hebrew language. I find it amazing.
They are using devices like David's Sling to turn aside the rockets....


We need to keep our eye on Israel and pray for them, too.

 

[Tambora]

There we go. A great topic needing division. Are we talking about the Kingdom on Earth or in Heaven?

I was thinking we could talk about all instances where a "kingdom" is talked about in the NT first and then go from there to match them up.
A complete study of "kingdom" talk.

 

[Tambora]

First scattered for centuries, then gathered as a nation as we see Israel today. They have sinew and flesh, but they are not worshipping their Messiah. Thus, they have no spirit or life. That will come near the end of the Tribulation, as I see it, when the remnant will be saved, and then spilling into the Millennium.

Hold on, something doesn't quite add up.

Scripture says God would end their exile and bring them back into the land to live in peace and safety to dwell among them again as Christ their righteousness High Priest (after the order of Melchizadek) and their righteous King of Kings.
Not to bring them back to the land so they could have an unrighteous non-believing ruler and unrighteous non-believing priests.
The Israel in the Middle East today is building a nation that wants nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
They are anti-Christ.
I don't think it was God that brought those Son rejecters back into the land.

 

[Tambora]

Israel is at the heart of the Bible, if you stop and think about it.

Ouch!
I bet you didn't mean for that to come across the way it does, but Christ is at the heart of the Bible, not Israel.

Israel is small stuff compared to what Christ really wants --- the whole world.

God blessed a lot of different nations with might and power and wealth throughout history, and God also slapped them silly and left them desolated.
God did the same with Israel.
Israel was the mini version of what God was doing with the world.

Israel is not THE Son of God, Christ is.
Israel is not THE light to the Gentiles/Nations, Christ is.

The promise to Abraham was:

Romans 4 ESV​

(13) For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.​

 

[glorydaz]

Hold on, something doesn't quite add up.

Scripture says God would end their exile and bring them back into the land to live in peace and safety to dwell among them again as Christ their righteousness High Priest (after the order of Melchizadek) and their righteous King of Kings.
Not to bring them back to the land so they could have an unrighteous non-believing ruler and unrighteous non-believing priests.
The Israel in the Middle East today is building a nation that wants nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
They are anti-Christ.
I don't think it was God that brought those Son rejecters back into the land.

God always takes Israel back, and He's using this very return in 1948 (that whole thing was a miracle, by the way). Yes, they are still rejecting their Messiah, which is why they're looking to set up the Temple as soon as possible. But God will use the Jews 144,000 to witness to the nations. There will be great tribulation such as has never been nor ever will b

Ouch!
I bet you didn't mean for that to come across the way it does, but Christ is at the heart of the Bible, not Israel.

Ezekiel 5:V.
5 Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

Israel is small stuff compared to what Christ really wants --- the whole world.

During the Millennium, Jerusalem will be the center of the whole world, and Christ will sit on the Throne. Isn't that how you see it?

God blessed a lot of different nations with might and power and wealth throughout history, and God also slapped them silly and left them desolated.
God did the same with Israel.
Israel was the mini version of what God was doing with the world.

Israel is not THE Son of God, Christ is.
Israel is not THE light to the Gentiles/Nations, Christ is.

The promise to Abraham was:

Romans 4 ESV​

(13) For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.​

e again.

It's after that Judgement that the Millennium will take place. With Jesse sitting on the throne of Dave. You're looking at time-lapse when you're reading Ezekiel. A Remnant of Jews will remain. They will be those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. They will have the Spirit of Life breathed into that tine Nation yet. Then it will be as God intended all along.

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry, Tam. I sure messed that up,

 

[Idolater]

... A Remnant of Jews will remain. [There] will be those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. They will have the Spirit of Life breathed into that [tiny] Nation yet. Then it will be as God intended all along.

You mean like in the Garden?

 

[Tambora]

Sorry, Tam. I sure messed that up,

That's OK, we don't have to have each other figured out right away.
Just keep discussing, asking questions, etc.

 

[Tambora]

God always takes Israel back, and He's using this very return in 1948 (that whole thing was a miracle, by the way). Yes, they are still rejecting their Messiah, which is why they're looking to set up the Temple as soon as possible. But God will use the Jews 144,000 to witness to the nations. There will be great tribulation such as has never been nor ever will b


Ezekiel 5:V.
5 Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.




During the Millennium, Jerusalem will be the center of the whole world, and Christ will sit on the Throne. Isn't that how you see it?


e again.

It's after that Judgement that the Millennium will take place. With Jesse sitting on the throne of Dave. You're looking at time-lapse when you're reading Ezekiel. A Remnant of Jews will remain. They will be those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. They will have the Spirit of Life breathed into that tine Nation yet. Then it will be as God intended all along.

Doesn't scripture say that when they are all gathered back into the land in the end times that it will be under the leadership of the promised righteous Shepherd?
It sounds as if you think that God's promise was to gather them back into the land as apostates under the leadership of unbelievers rebelling against Christ.
That just doesn't sound like the promise God made to them, and that's where my disconnect is in what you are saying (if I'm reading you correctly).

To me, them being in the land today is not due to God's leadership but due to the leadership of an antichrist that wants to keep them blind and deceived in rebellion against Christ.

But, hey, that's why we can discuss in a civil manner to iron things out together.

 

[Idolater]

Doesn't scripture say that when they are all gathered back into the land in the end times that it will be under the leadership of the promised righteous Shepherd?
It sounds as if you think that God's promise was to gather them back into the land as apostates under the leadership of unbelievers rebelling against Christ.
That just doesn't sound like the promise God made to them, and that's where my disconnect is in what you are saying (if I'm reading you correctly).

To me, them being in the land today is not due to God's leadership but due to the leadership of an antichrist that wants to keep them blind and deceived in rebellion against Christ.

But, hey, that's why we can discuss in a civil manner to iron things out together.

For both Ashkenazim and other blood descendants of Abraham, and for Christians, the Messiah is not currently visibly reigning on an Earthly throne, so in what way politically might He reign now while He is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Suppose a constitutional monarchy where the throne is vacant. So therefore, what can we say about this constitution, what characterizes or specifies it? The crown itself must in some sense be in, or even be the constitution (government), it's not just the government of the Monarch, it is in some sense the Monarch Himself.

And that sense might just be political. Like He is politically present and really reigns, where His political constitution (government) is.

If modern Israel's regime (constitution) is in the political sense Christ Himself, it could be said that modern Israelis are under the leadership of the promised righteous Shepherd. But the constitution's got to be Christ's constitution, and I'm not sure that it is.

 

[Right Divider]

I think the dry bones shown to Ezekiel is referring to the Nation of Israel.

It says that the dry bones are the whole house of Israel.

Ezek 37:11 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:11) ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

First scattered for centuries, then gathered as a nation as we see Israel today.

Yes, you've made this claim a number of times.

They have sinew and flesh, but they are not worshipping their Messiah.

No, they do NOT have sinews and flesh. God says that He will GIVE those to the dry bones.

Ezek 37:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:6) And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Thus, they have no spirit or life. That will come near the end of the Tribulation, as I see it, when the remnant will be saved, and then spilling into the Millennium.

Please demonstrate this from the scripture.

Since God gives the dry bones both flesh and breath... this appears to be more like a resurrection of the dead (i.e., the dry bones). Like this verse:

Ezek 37:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Notice the order. God brings them out of their graves and THEN brings them to the land of Israel.

Ezek 37:13-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:13) And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (37:14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Again, we see that God gives them His spirit and THEN places them in their own land.

Ezek 37:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (37:22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (37:23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (37:24) And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

When God does gather them into their land, they will have a king. That is not what we saw in 1948 nor now.