The elect By nature the children of wrath as others !

[beloved57]

Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and w​ere by nature the children of wrath, even as others

Lets make no mistake whom Paul refers to here, those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4

Now many have misreperensted this statement "and w​ere by nature the children of wrath, even as others"

To say or mean that the Chosen of God were at one time under Gods wrath as others, but thats not what it says, nor means.

What it does mean is that the elect by nature, are those who in thought and action are prompted by the devil, and so reflect his character, so says Eph 2:2

wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul is saying that by nature the elect of God are no better than the non elect, the children of the devil.

By nature both are under the power and spell of deception by or of the devil and so by nature the elect deserved to suffer the same fate as the vessels of wrath

See by nature the elect should have suffered the same fate as those who are going to perish in their sins under the eternal wrath of God !

Gods election in Christ makes the difference !

 

[beloved57]

The NIV translation, captures the meaning of God in Eph 2:3

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

See the elect were never under Gods wrath nor destined to wrath like others. Paul had just written of them in Eph 1:3-7

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


They had been in Christ before the foundation chosen, already accepted in Him. That word accepted means :

1. to make graceful
   1. charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to persue with grace, compass with favour
3. to honour with blessings
   
   be highly favoured.
   
   So they were born by nature highly favoured, compassed with favour and would obtain mercy. But yes naturally, even as the vessels of wrath[Rom 9:22], they deserved wrath .

 

[Nanja]

The NIV translation, captures the meaning of God in Eph 2:3

[FONT="]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. [B]Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.[/B]

See the elect were never under Gods wrath nor destined to wrath like others. Paul had just written of them in Eph 1:3-7

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#0A0A0A][FONT=arial][COLOR=#01103A]Blessed [I]be[/I] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [I]places[/I] in Christ:[/COLOR]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. [/FONT][/B][FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


[/FONT][FONT="]They had been in Christ before the foundation chosen, already accepted in Him. That word accepted means :


[LIST=1]
[*][COLOR=#000000]to make graceful[/COLOR]

[LIST=1]
[*][COLOR=#000000]charming, lovely, agreeable[/COLOR]
[/LIST]

[*][COLOR=#000000]to persue with grace, compass with favour[/COLOR]

[*][COLOR=#000000]to honour with blessings

[COLOR=#0A0A0A]be highly favoured.

So they were born by nature highly favoured, compassed with favour and would obtain mercy. But yes naturally, even as the vessels of wrath[Rom 9:22], they deserved wrath .[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[/LIST]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]


[COLOR="#006400"]Amen to both parts !

Even though God's elect Eph. 1:3-4 by nature deserved His wrath as the non-elect did, even so, through Grace given His elect Vessels of Mercy before World began Eph. 1:6 in Christ their Surety and Saviour Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8b, they have Legal Reconciliation before God's Law and Justice; being made Righteous, reconciled to God by the Blood of Christ even while they were being His enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:9-10 !

 

[beloved57]

Amen to both parts !

Even though God's elect Eph. 1:3-4 by nature deserved His wrath as the non-elect did, even so, through Grace given His elect Vessels of Mercy before World began Eph. 1:6 in Christ their Surety and Saviour Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8b, they have Legal Reconciliation before God's Law and Justice; being made Righteous, reconciled to God by the Blood of Christ even while they were being His enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:9-10 !

Exactly Sister.

 

[beloved57]

Another way of understanding Eph 2:3 without false teaching that Gods elect are under Gods wrath at some point, its to read the verse to mean that the elect are by nature wrathful children even as others. This means they have a naturally wrathful disposition towards God and the things of God. Yes even the elect by nature are enemies to God Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word wrath orgē meaning:

1. anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2. movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
   
   And the word enemies in Rom 5:10 and Col 1:21 is the word echthros:
   
   From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)
   
   
   1. hated, odious, hateful
   2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
      1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
         1. opposing (God) in the mind

 

[beloved57]

I quote John Gill from his commentary on the understanding of Eph 2:3 " by nature children of wrath as others"

and were by nature children of wrath, even as others: by which is meant, not only that they were wrathful persons, living in malice, hateful, and hating one another; but that they were deserving of the wrath of God, which comes upon the children of disobedience, among whom they had their conversation; and which is revealed from heaven against such sins as they were guilty of, though they were not appointed to it: and they were such "by nature"; really, and not in opinion, and by and from their first birth: so a Jewish commentator (s) on these words, "thy first father hath sinned", Isaiah 43:27 has this note;"how canst thou say thou hast not sinned? and behold thy first father hath sinned, and he is the first man, for man , "is naturally in sin";''or by nature a sinner, or sin is naturally impressed in him; and hence being by nature a sinner, he is by nature deserving of the wrath of God, as were the persons spoken of:even as others; as the rest of the world, Jews as well as Gentiles; and Gentiles are especially designed, in distinction from the Jews, the apostle is speaking of; and who are particularly called in the Jewish dialect "others"; See Gill on Luke 18:11.

 

[Jacob]

I have read your OP. Thank you so much beloved57!

 

[Nanja]

I quote John Gill from his commentary on the understanding of Eph 2:3 " by nature children of wrath as others"

Amen to parts 5 and 6; plus excellent commentary by John Gill.

It was only all God's elect [Jacob], which were originally in Adam the first man when he sinned, that they were made by nature sinners deserving of wrath even as others: the rest of the world, or those without the Word, which are the same as the non-elect children of the devil John 8:44.

 

[beloved57]

nanja

It was only all God's elect [Jacob], which were originally in Adam the first man when he sinned,

Amen Sister, but very few believe that.

 

[Jacob]

It was only all God's elect [Jacob],

I do not understand.

 

[beloved57]

I do not understand.

Most dont. However in the beginning Adam represented the Church alone, not all mankind without exception. The none elect however were added to Adams natural headship but spiritually they belong to the devils spiritual offspring. Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Were you aware that scripture teaches that the devil has a seed /offspring ?

 

[beloved57]

Now the elect by nature cant be under Gods wrath like others because God has not imputed their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Since God doesnt charge them with sins, and sin is what brings about Gods wrath ie Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

So there's absolutely no just reason for God to have His wrath upon the sinful, ungodly elect since He doesnt charge them with sin !

 

[ttruscott]

Believers who choose to sin and become enslaved to sin are NEVER CONDEMNED! as John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The not condemned is in effect from the time of their election before the foundation of the world, ie, election causes salvation, salvation does not cause election, sigh.

 

[Jacob]

Most dont. However in the beginning Adam represented the Church alone, not all mankind without exception. The none elect however were added to Adams natural headship but spiritually they belong to the devils spiritual offspring. Gen 3:15

15 [FONT="]And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Were you aware that scripture teaches that the devil has a seed /offsring ?[/FONT]

Yes, though I don't follow the serpents seed doctrine.

However, I was asking about the name Jacob in what I quoted, why it is included and for what purpose.

 

[Nanja]

Now the elect by nature cant be under Gods wrath like others because God has not imputed their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19 [FONT="]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself[B], not imputing their trespasses unto them; [/B]and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Since God doesnt charge them with sins, and sin is what brings about Gods wrath ie Col 3:5-6

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

So theres absolutely no just reason for God to have His wrath upon the sinful, ungodly elect since He doesnt charge them with sin ![/FONT]

Amen Brother ! Those which make up the Elect Reconciled World of 2 Cor. 5:19, the Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23, by nature were children of wrath as others, yet never had any sin whatsoever charged to them, even though they sin all day long, because their sins were imputed to their Saviour Jesus Christ which appeased the wrath of God on their behalf.

And so, the Scripture asks the question in Rom. 8:33, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's Elect ? It is God that justifieth."

And The Psalmist also attests to this fact of non-imputation of sin:

Ps. 32:1-2

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.


However, the World of the non-elect; children / vessels of wrath Rom. 9:22 that God never loved, must pay the price for their own sins in the second death Rev. 21:8, for they have no savior from sin, but were Made by God specifically for the day of evil Prov. 16:4.

Ps. 9:16-17

16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.


2 Thes. 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[beloved57]

Their sins have been forgiven !

Another reason why the elect of Gods sheep aren't by nature under Gods wrath, a reason that is closely akin to the non imputation of their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19; Rom 4:8 and that's because their sins have been forgiven. Notice Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See the connection ? The folks whom God doesn't and will not impute sin are also blessed again because their sins have been forgiven.

So how could they possibly be under Gods wrath even while living wickedly ? For what ? Theirs no sins, iniquity being charged to them, and they are totally forgiven.

 

[beloved57]

Believers who choose to sin and become enslaved to sin are NEVER CONDEMNED! as John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The not condemned is in effect from the time of their election before the foundation of the world, ie, election causes salvation, salvation does not cause election, sigh.

So do you believe believers are condemned by God before they become believers ?

 

[beloved57]

Yes, though I don't follow the serpents seed doctrine.

However, I was asking about the name Jacob in what I quoted, why it is included and for what purpose.

Well thats not what you said in your question. You just made a blanket statement " i dont understand"

But jacob is another synonym or name for Gods elect. Ps 135:4

For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

 

[Nanja]

Their sins have been forgiven !

Another reason why the elect of Gods sheep aren't by nature under Gods wrath, a reason that is closely akin to the non imputation of their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19; Rom 4:8 and that's because their sins have been forgiven. Notice Rom 4:7-8

[FONT=&]7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See the connection ? The folks whom God doesn't and will not impute sin are also blessed again because their sins have been forgiven.

So how could they possibly be under Gods wrath even while living wickedly ? For what ? Theirs no sins, iniquity being charged to them, and they are totally forgiven.[/FONT]

So True, any for whom Christ died, all their sins against God's Law, and the guilt associated with them, have been imputed to Christ their Saviour instead, and His Righteousness imputed to them. They are Blessed indeed, totally forgiven, never having been under God's Wrath; and that's while being ungodly and living wickedly !

Also, forgiveness of sins entails them being totally acquitted, so they can never be punished for them.

 

[beloved57]

Another reason why the elect, while sinners as other men are, are not under Gods wrath as others, its because Christ for them is their propitiation. He has propitiated God for them by satisfying by His Blood, Gods law and justice for them, appeasing His just Wrath against their sins. 1 Jn 2:1-2, so it would be a great contradiction in God to have those Christ died for and propitiated for to be under His wrath anyway.