The Church in the Book of Revelation

Arial

Active member
Colossians 3:1 " If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
What would you consider the things above?

I would consider that to be keeping our focus on Jesus, who He is and what He has accomplished. Of letting the Spirit sanctify us through His word. Of growing in our knowledge of God. All these things are found in His word, and growing in them is without limit as we learn to trust in who God is. And all these things are held as truth in the doctrines of Christianity. The doctrines of God, of Christ, of Salvation, that come from the Bible. Those things that Jesus and the Apostles taught. Man's condition and need. God's glory.

I find that these things are often skimmed over at best and the focus is on the things of the earth. God and Christ become almost in our peripheral vision as a benefactor. And instead of preaching or defending the gospel we argue over things like the millennial reign and the rapture and two gospels or one. We frankly seem to have a religion that is self centered and not God centered. And we are ill prepared in my opinion to even defend the gospel from a deep and abiding conviction and knowledge. Ill prepared to even notice the wolves in sheeps clothing or even care, let alone have the first clue how to defend ourselves or our flocks.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I find that these things are often skimmed over at best and the focus is on the things of the earth.
Col 3:1-4 (KJV)
(3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (3:3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (3:4) When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I am a bit sceptical of arriving at an entire doctrine or belief from one sentence here, another there.
That's hardly the case here.
If a person believes that Revelation is speaking of a seven year period, then I suppose they could take this sentence and say that means that that time period could be shortened---if that is what you are saying,----or in fact will be to save the elect. However the elect cannot be lost. One of the primary purposes for Revelation is to assure the elect of their spiritual safety, no matter what man does to them.
The scripture says the great tribulation would be shortened for the elect's sake. Nothing to do with their being saved by that shortening.
There will be incredible suffering coming upon those who are left after the rapture. The "elect" John is talking about are the Jews.

Matt. 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If a person thinks that the tribulation period, as well as the thousand year reign of Christ is the time period from His resurrection to His second coming, it means something different, and considers other things in the sentence beside "those days shall be shortened."

I don't know anyone who thinks that.
Since God is sovereign and He makes the statement that His plan and purpose is eternal and will not change, that all of it unfolds from beginning to end according to His decree, that the days are shortened does not mean that the plan changed or something caused it to change. It simply means that if God had not determined an end to tribulation and initiated final judgment and restoration, no flesh would be left alive. In mercy He has an elect (believers), and there is an end to the evil one and his activity. Judgment comes. All is restored.
You seem to be making some assumptions there that have no basis in fact.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
He that overcometh is the church of God.
Those churches who John was writing to---those people were long gone before His second coming. We may be too, but through the first death---the death of the body.

Overcome and endure are not the same thing. The believer has overcome, as you say, and we also have to endure to the end. Either the end of our life on earth, or until His second coming---whichever comes first. Overcometh is not an imperative, it is a statement of fact. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
No, he that overcometh is not the church of God. My point was that we are complete in Christ, and He has overcome the world for us.

The churches in Revelation are tribulation churches and they must do works ....obedience to commandments and repenting in order to overcome. Enduring to the end as well. Just as John preached before he was put in prison.

We do not have to endure to the end or overcome. Those both require actions on man's part.
Besides, the church of God will already be with the Lord in heaven, by the time the great tribulation comes.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
But to quibble over the details that do not affect salvation is to miss the majors, while we stay focused on the minors. Also to miss the message that I offered, and the primary message and purpose of Revelation. To comfort and strengthen God's people in whatever may come, give assurance of their salvation and His keeping their future with Him safe. So that we will lean on Him and trust in Him and fear not, for He is with us. And not be dismayed because He is our God.
So you think telling people to repent, keep the commandments, and overcome is giving assurance of their salvation?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You are using dispensations as an interpretive tool, which does change things, but does not mean they are right, or the only legitimate way to see things.

When you refuse to see there are different dispensations, you make big mistakes....like with your statement here below.
In truth Jew and Gentile could always be saved apart from one another, and through the same means---the same means through which people are saved after the resurrection. Faith.
Wrong. Faith and works were required for salvation before Christ's resurrection, just as faith and works will be required again after the rapture of the church.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
As you appear to be getting desperate in trying to support your position against what I say, and therefore resorting to childish retorts and insult, and my awareness that you will not stop replying to everything I say in this same vein, I won't bother to respond to this foolishness.
He supports his position just fine.

You, on the other hand, have no position to support.
You just toss up ideas and hope they stick.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
What would you consider the things above?

I would consider that to be keeping our focus on Jesus, who He is and what He has accomplished. Of letting the Spirit sanctify us through His word. Of growing in our knowledge of God. All these things are found in His word, and growing in them is without limit as we learn to trust in who God is. And all these things are held as truth in the doctrines of Christianity. The doctrines of God, of Christ, of Salvation, that come from the Bible. Those things that Jesus and the Apostles taught. Man's condition and need. God's glory.

I find that these things are often skimmed over at best and the focus is on the things of the earth. God and Christ become almost in our peripheral vision as a benefactor. And instead of preaching or defending the gospel we argue over things like the millennial reign and the rapture and two gospels or one. We frankly seem to have a religion that is self centered and not God centered. And we are ill prepared in my opinion to even defend the gospel from a deep and abiding conviction and knowledge. Ill prepared to even notice the wolves in sheeps clothing or even care, let alone have the first clue how to defend ourselves or our flocks.
This is actually quite something to behold. You scold for our not preaching the Gospel, yet you complain about the thread on "two gospels". The reason we have that thread is because people like you don't even know what the Gospel is. And the complaint about the "millennial" reign and the rapture when it's YOU who started threads on Revelation. :LOL:

Try to get off you high horse. We'd have a better chance at communication if you could bring yourself to do that.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
What would you consider the things above?
Read the rest of the chapter. Paul provides enough detail to know precisely what he's talking about, don't you agree? Don't you agree that he explained his mystical language in verses 1-3 quite well in the balance of Colossians chapter three?

It's about ethics, or morals, largely, we would say. There's doctrine yes, but it's 'heavy' on ethics too. It's what we believe, but it's also what we do. And it's not like what we do hinges upon what we believe either, if you notice. He 'spells out' all the topics he's trying to talk about, he's got a pretty extensive list of things both to pursue and do, and to avoid.

It's completely fascinating that the things above are ethical. Paul says we're already in heaven right now, in Christ, and his Apostolic council is to dwell and meditate on ethical matters. It would seem that already being in heaven, why bother at all with ethics? Let's just indulge and succumb to our original sin's suggestions, since that's the 'easy' thing to do. Or so the thinking might go.

But the balance of Colossians chapter three crushes that notion as its polar opposite, on the contrary, you very much should dwell on matters of ethics, sometimes also called morals.

(The 'morals' versus 'ethics' confusion is aggravating tbh, it's complicated but it's not that complicated, let's not make it more complicated than it is, but it's like pinning down a fresh watermelon seed the way it's talked about now, and I mean everywhere. Because there's no 'dictionary' for the words, and how they relate, that's authoritative. Everyone means something else whenever they use these words 'morality' and 'ethics'.)
I would consider that to be keeping our focus on Jesus, who He is and what He has accomplished. Of letting the Spirit sanctify us through His word. Of growing in our knowledge of God. All these things are found in His word, and growing in them is without limit as we learn to trust in who God is. And all these things are held as truth in the doctrines of Christianity. The doctrines of God, of Christ, of Salvation, that come from the Bible. Those things that Jesus and the Apostles taught. Man's condition and need. God's glory.

I find that these things are often skimmed over at best and the focus is on the things of the earth. God and Christ become almost in our peripheral vision as a benefactor. And instead of preaching or defending the gospel we argue over things like the millennial reign and the rapture and two gospels or one. We frankly seem to have a religion that is self centered and not God centered. And we are ill prepared in my opinion to even defend the gospel from a deep and abiding conviction and knowledge. Ill prepared to even notice the wolves in sheeps clothing or even care, let alone have the first clue how to defend ourselves or our flocks.
Paul is trying to advise the Church how to 'remind' themselves that they are already seated at the right hand of the Father in Christ in heaven. This is how we do it, we focus on ethics, on our ethics, and our ethics isn't ambiguous since it was preserved by all the Church's bishops since the time of the Apostles. Of all the doctrinal disputes there's no moral disputes, so we can be confident that this witness has been very well preserved.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Paul is trying to advise the Church how to 'remind' themselves that they are already seated at the right hand of the Father in Christ in heaven.

Yes, in the same way he tells us to reckon ourselves dead to sin.
This is how we do it, we focus on ethics, on our ethics, and our ethics isn't ambiguous since it was preserved by all the Church's bishops since the time of the Apostles. Of all the doctrinal disputes there's no moral disputes, so we can be confident that this witness has been very well preserved.
This puts me in mind of the Fruit of the Spirit.
We have to be careful not to take credit for those things the Holy Spirit is performing in us.

I think that's why Paul says to set our affections on things above....taking our eyes off ourselves is probably the best thing we can do.
 

musterion

Well-known member
In truth Jew and Gentile could always be saved apart from one another, and through the same means---the same means through which people are saved after the resurrection. Faith.
False.

Gentiles were strangers, shut out of the covenants and promises given only to Israel, and so without hope. None had faith of any value, for in their centuries of idol blindness they had no idea who God was, much less how to approach Him.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Yes, in the same way he tells us to reckon ourselves dead to sin.

This puts me in mind of the Fruit of the Spirit.
We have to be careful not to take credit for those things the Holy Spirit is performing in us.

I think that's why Paul says to set our affections on things above....taking our eyes off ourselves is probably the best thing we can do.
Except not when it's in direct conflict with something like Colossians three, is all. Because otherwise then Colossians three makes no sense. Why did Paul write it that way, if not to 'flesh out' what he meant by "things above" in verses 1-3? He even quoted the Torah! He's like 'Psalm 119ing' them. Like, 'meditate on . . . the law'. It's our ethics, our 'morals', our conduct and behavior, our character, it's these things, that he means by "things which are above" in verses 1-3. Along with some doctrine, or teaching on faith, and what we believe.

Both Peter and Paul write this. It's their advice for how we---who are in heaven, according to verses 1-3----can 'feel it'. To have 'loose morals' is to feel the opposite, it's to miss out on what this life in the flesh is all about. It's like shooting yourself and everyone you know in the foot.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Except not when it's in direct conflict with something like Colossians three, is all. Because otherwise then Colossians three makes no sense. Why did Paul write it that way, if not to 'flesh out' what he meant by "things above" in verses 1-3? He even quoted the Torah! He's like 'Psalm 119ing' them. Like, 'meditate on . . . the law'. It's our ethics, our 'morals', our conduct and behavior, our character, it's these things, that he means by "things which are above" in verses 1-3. Along with some doctrine, or teaching on faith, and what we believe.

Both Peter and Paul write this. It's their advice for how we---who are in heaven, according to verses 1-3----can 'feel it'. To have 'loose morals' is to feel the opposite, it's to miss out on what this life in the flesh is all about. It's like shooting yourself and everyone you know in the foot.
Alrighty then. I'm going to have to cogitate on this one. :unsure:
 

Arial

Active member
False.

Gentiles were strangers, shut out of the covenants and promises given only to Israel, and so without hope. None had faith of any value, for in their centuries of idol blindness they had no idea who God was, much less how to approach Him.
False.

What about those who were "saved", placed their faith in God before there even was an Israel? What about those Gentiles that were joined to Israel, not a few of them in the ancestral line of Jesus? What about Job and His friends? There is a difference between that covenant of works God made with only Israel and salvation. Through that covenant God revealed Himself to Israel in a covenant way, and with the purpose of through that bring ultimately the availability of a covenant relationship with all mankind that came through Jesus---through Israel---first made with Abraham---the covenant of redemption. Through faith, not works of covenant conditions.
 

musterion

Well-known member
False.

What about those who were "saved", placed their faith in God before there even was an Israel? What about those Gentiles that were joined to Israel, not a few of them in the ancestral line of Jesus? What about Job and His friends? There is a difference between that covenant of works God made with only Israel and salvation. Through that covenant God revealed Himself to Israel in a covenant way, and with the purpose of through that bring ultimately the availability of a covenant relationship with all mankind that came through Jesus---through Israel---first made with Abraham---the covenant of redemption. Through faith, not works of covenant conditions.

You are so deeply entangled in error that it would take more time than I have to point out where your assumptions are false, and that's before even trying to show you the truth. Which you won't accept anyway.

Read 1 Cor 15:3-4 and Titus 3:5. Believe what you read and forsake all your religious self-effort, which will only damn you.
 

Arial

Active member
You are so deeply entangled in error that it would take more time than I have to point out where your assumptions are false, and that's before even trying to show you the truth. Which you won't accept anyway.

Read 1 Cor 15:3-4 and Titus 3:5. Believe what you read and forsake all your religious self-effort, which will only damn you.
I believe both those scriptures and have for 40 years. So obviously you know nothing about me and presume that you do. So much so that you decide you have the knowledge you need to go so far as to damn me. What religious self-effort of mine do you speak of? What error do you presume I am deeply entangled it? If someone is going to say those things about someone they really ought to let that person know what they are talking about. Saying you don't have time in order to escape having to do so, only serves to let me know that it irritates you that I don't agree with you---perhaps even pointed out something you forgot or never knew. If you were to, say, point out my deeply ingrained errors, we could take a closer look, maybe even have a discussion about it. And a person who is concerned for the lost, which you imply I am, and evangelist iow, following the great imperative of Jesus to His followers, would be delighted to have the opportunity placed right in their lap.
 

Arial

Active member
Read the rest of the chapter. Paul provides enough detail to know precisely what he's talking about, don't you agree? Don't you agree that he explained his mystical language in verses 1-3 quite well in the balance of Colossians chapter three?

It's about ethics, or morals, largely, we would say. There's doctrine yes, but it's 'heavy' on ethics too. It's what we believe, but it's also what we do. And it's not like what we do hinges upon what we believe either, if you notice. He 'spells out' all the topics he's trying to talk about, he's got a pretty extensive list of things both to pursue and do, and to avoid.
I do not know what you mean by mystical language. I see nothing mystical about Paul's language.
Behavior and attitudes acceptable and expected as Christians is a part of Christian doctrine---not its entire focus. Behaviors--ethics---if you will are of the earth. To set our focus there on our ethics is to set our focus on us. It is Christ, our Savior, Redeemer, and High Priest who is above. Not our ethics. Imperatives of behavior are given for instruction in righteousness. Fallen people need to be trained in righteousness or we do not even know what it is. If our focus and love is on and for Christ, and we stay focused on His word---all of it---these changes will take place for it is the Holy Spirit who bears this fruit in us.
It's completely fascinating that the things above are ethical. Paul says we're already in heaven right now, in Christ, and his Apostolic council is to dwell and meditate on ethical matters. It would seem that already being in heaven, why bother at all with ethics? Let's just indulge and succumb to our original sin's suggestions, since that's the 'easy' thing to do. Or so the thinking might go.

But the balance of Colossians chapter three crushes that notion as its polar opposite, on the contrary, you very much should dwell on matters of ethics, sometimes also called morals.
The things above are perfect. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The believer is sealed in Christ and His righteousness, and in that sense, the sense of being in Him (union through faith) Paul can say our life is hidden with Christ in God. He does not say we are now in heaven. And the scriptures show us what ethical behavior is, but they do not say that Jesus is meditating on ethics or that we are to meditate on ethics.
Paul is trying to advise the Church how to 'remind' themselves that they are already seated at the right hand of the Father in Christ in heaven. This is how we do it, we focus on ethics, on our ethics, and our ethics isn't ambiguous since it was preserved by all the Church's bishops since the time of the Apostles. Of all the doctrinal disputes there's no moral disputes, so we can be confident that this witness has been very well preserved.
The Holy Spirit is given to the believer as a teacher of the things of Christ, to remind us of all things that He has said. (John 14:26) To testify of Jesus. (John 15:26) To guide us into all truth. (John 16:13) To glorify Jesus. (John 16:14) It is the Holy Spirit that produces the fruit of obedience (ethics) in the believer (Gal 5:22-23), not we who produce it from within ourselves. It is the Vine (Jesus) that produces the fruit on the branches, not the branches that produce the fruit. Our responsibility in this equation is to obey what we read in scripture as to the "ethics". We are being transformed (not transforming ourselves) into the image of Christ. (2 Cor 3:18). This is a lifelong process and it comes about as we contemplate His glory, not by meditating on ethics.
 

Arial

Active member
You tell me by answering this:



Which is what, found where in the Bible?
Mar 16:15; Acts 10:42; Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14.

But that still doesn't explain the accusation you made that I am deeply entangled in error. What is the error that I am deeply entangled in? If such a thing is true, shouldn't you tell me what it is so I can get straightened out and not go to hell?
 
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