The Bundy Bunch Trial Begins

[Jose Fly]

All that verbiage and you can't explain how the Bundy's et al. aren't guilty of conspiring to use threats, intimidation, or force to prevent federal employees from carrying out their duties. I guess it was an entertaining general rant though....

the FBI and the Oregon State Police set up a road block where they tried to kill two men and two women in Fenicom's truck.

They set up a road block to apprehend the conspirators. Had Finicum not fled the police, led them on high-speed chase, and nearly run into an officer he would still be alive today.

So are you now arguing that when you, I, or anyone else who is pulled over by the police we can tell them "you'll have to shoot me", flee at high speeds, nearly run over an officer, get out of the vehicle and reach for our pockets multiple times.....and everything will be just fine?

If that's what you think, then you're more delusional than I thought.

 

[northwye]

Romans 13 and Obeying the Beast

Christians can be deceived into accepting and obeying a fascist government by calling their attention to Romans 13, interpreted to mean that they too must submit to and obey the government in all it does, no matter how immoral those actions are.

Leftists will use the dialectic to argue that Christianity, conservatism, Americanism, or patriotism and the family all cause fascism. But the goal of Leftist-Marxism is government just as totalitarian, or worse, than that of fascism.

Romans 13 misinterpreted can be used to convince Christians to accept tyranny by a Leftist government,as in the U.S

The beast is the government beast of Revelation 13: 1-10. The second beast of Revelation 13: 11-18 is not a government or a composite of more than one government. The second beast is the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and of II Peter 2: 1-3, who may work for the first beast to justify the actions of the first beast.

The majority of German Lutherans and Calvinists who supported Hitler
and the Nazi government seemed to have forgotten that first the German
Lutherans, and later the European and English Calvinists in the
sixteenth century formulated a rationale to justify Christian
opposition to the tyranny of government. And/or, the German pastors
who knew of this Protestant history thought it better to ignore it and go along with Hitler.

John Knox (1505-1572), a Scottish Calvinist, and Christopher Goodman
(1520-1603), apparently an Englishman, came up with the doctrine that
it is the duty of each citizen and of the "whole multitude" to
maintain and defend the moral laws of God against their own rulers.

In the case of he Bundy trial, the moral law of God is upheld when the government
actions against individuals are justified, and when those actions are not justified, the moral law of God opposes that government.

John Knox, the sixteenth century Calvinist leader in Scotland, was
sentenced to death by the Catholics in 1556. Knox said that the king
and the lower level magistrates were not placed above the people to
rule as tyrants. He said the chief duty of magistrates is to punish
evil doing, and to support the well doers.
John Knox pointed out that Romans 13 defines the duty of rulers as one
of punishing those who do evil, and to protect the people from those
who would harm them..

Like any other text in the Bible, Romans 13 needs to be interpreted in
light of other Bible verses.

One text that is often used to set some limits upon the interpretation
of Romans 13 to mean we must obey rulers regardless of their policies,
actions or words is Acts 5: 29. The Pharisees and the high priest
had warned Peter and the other apostles not to teach in Christ's name.
Peter then said, "We ought to obey God rather than men."

"My question today is why do most judges insist on remaining ignorant of the highest uncontested law of the land? It must be something like a fervent and worshipful passion for that un-named religion called “Statism”, the philosophy of worshiping authority over all else in the name of Statism..."

American Leftists, who mostly do not know what Marxism is, cannot see that Leftist-Marxism aims to create a totalitarian government, just as totalitarian or worse than German Fascism. And they would want to keep the Bundy trials off in a compartment separate from this issue.

 

[Jose Fly]

Monday's summary, including the FBI finding over 1,600 spent shell casing at the refuge, jurors seeing video of the occupiers shooting their guns at the refuge, evidence of a sniper position set up by the occupiers, and one of the occupiers' truck having stolen materials inside (several government gas cards, four U.S. Department of Interior MasterCards, a refuge employee's identification card, and cash and checks).

 

[northwye]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/25/would-be-trump-delegate-faces-federal-charges-from-bundy-standoff/

"A potential delegate supporting Donald Trump could be unavailable to the New York developer come convention time.

Jerry DeLemus, a New Hampshire tea party activist, is being held in custody without bond as he faces federal criminal charges for his alleged involvement with the 2014 Bundy Ranch standoff with federal authorities.

The Wall Street Journal reports DeLemus, among others, was charged in federal court in early March on nine counts for his alleged part in the Nevada standoff, led by rancher Cliven Bundy, with the Bureau of Land Management authorities."

"DeLemus discussed his time at the Bundy Ranch to Doug & Joe Hagmann on a blogtalk radio podcast days after the standoff."

“New Hampshire GOP congressional nominee Dan Innis defended DeLemus on WMUR saying his arrest was nothing but government overreach. If you consider the fact we went two years before the government went after this guy, you have to wonder what is going on,” he said. “What is the real agenda here that the government has?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5gZZ9tfVZ4

"Apr 25, 2014

Jerry De Lemus tells his story of how he is defending the Cliven Bundy family from our tyrannical government, to Doug & Joe Hagmann."

Doug and his son Joe of the Hagmann and Hagmann Report are Christians.

 

[northwye]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread...-for-Discussing-Hillary-s-Parkinson-s-Disease

"Michael Savage Kicked off the Air for Discussing Hillary's Parkinson's Disease. Savage's mother died from Parkinson's, and he knows a lot about it. He said he thought Hillary was suffering from the side effects of a drug called Levodopa which is used to treat Parkinson's. Hillary's side effects are identical to somebody that is taking the drug. He was kicked off of WABC in New York, and the fill-in's were boasting about kicking him off the air. "

The ruling elite has apparently decided that there is a good chance that Trump will have many more votes on November 8th than his opponent, and that the election can turn out to be an overwhelming upset by Trump. Getting rid of those in the alternative media whose ideas Trump has used and who are leading audiences to support him is one tactic, but all the alternative media people who are supporting Trump have to be gotten rid of = and it may be getting late to do that.

What does the attack upon the alternative media have to do with the Bundy trials? Nothing, if you can keep the Bundy trails compartmentalized from the populist-patriot-nationalist movement. But the Bundys have had some support from the alternative media, and that populist-patriot-nationalist movement has been growing.

Remember, one of the points of origin of the populist-patriot-nationalist movement was the reaction against the movement of the ruling elite to set up a world government and gain more control over Americans in the process - by use of Transformational Marxism and very recently by bringing in hordes of "refugees" from the Middle East, among whom are an unknown number of ISIS jihadis. That populist-patriot-nationalist movement began with a few short wave broadcasters during the latter part of the administration of George H.W. Bush, and during the Bill Clinton era. And events which featured a heavy handed federal government during those years before the turn of the century led to the rise of this movement. Ruby Ridge was near the close of the George H.W. Bush rule and the Waco massacre was during the years of the Bill and Hillary regime.

In part the Sagebrush and Cowboy revolt is part of this patriot movement and that movement needs the alternative media.

http://breaking911.com/breaking-tal...avage-abruptly-removed-radio-claims-sabotage/

"Savage recently was inducted into the National Radio Hall of Fame at a ceremony in Chicago in the category of Spoken Word On-Air Personality.

Savage is a staunch Trump supporter. Trump has been on the Savage radio show multiple times.

Many suspect that this was deliberately done just ahead of the debate."

"The Savage Nation is a nationally syndicated talk show that is the second most listened-to radio talk show in the country with an audience of over 20 million listeners on 400 stations across the United States,"

 

[Jose Fly]

Feds present dramatic display of 22 long guns, 12 handguns recovered from refuge

One by one, an FBI agent Tuesday held up for jurors 22 long guns and nearly a dozen handguns that authorities located on the front seats of cars or the beds of trucks, stuffed under a cot or on top of a stump, and inside a cooler in the west encampment of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

Two FBI agents wheeled in a large gray recycling bin containing the long guns. FBI Agent Ronnie Walker handed each one to the witness and fellow Agent Nick Vanicelli, a 20-year bureau veteran based in Denver.

Vanicelli identified each firearm, where he located it and whether it had been loaded.

Then Walker took the weapon back and propped it against a white board leaning against the witness stand.

After about 20 minutes of testimony, the crush of firepower remained propped up in a teepee-type formation against the white board in front of jurors.

Once the long guns were removed, a cart that usually holds bound volumes of trial notebooks was wheeled in, and 12 handguns — 11 found at the encampment and one found in a green truck parked outside the old fire shop near the refuge headquarters — were presented in the same manner...

...Thousands of rounds of ammunition also were found with the firearms, in the trucks at the scene, or scattered in and around the tent structure.

In a truck with Idaho plates, two rifles, three handguns and 2,639 rounds of ammunition were located, the agent said.

More than 3,417 rounds were located outside the large tent, and about 1,554 rounds were found inside, Vanicelli testified. Ninety-eight other rounds of ammunition, for example, were scattered on the seat of an ATV parked at the site. Twenty-seven bullets, propped up in a Styrofoam container, sat on the dashboard of a truck.

 

[northwye]

https://www.youtube.com/user/michaelsavagevideos

As usual there is a September 27, 2016 Michael Savage broadcast on youtube. I am listening to it now. Some guy called in and said his show today was on a Chicago radio station. Savage may not be on New York radio station WABC today. But he is not totally silenced, and his youtube channel is still up.

I was thinking of the Hagmann and Hagmann Report, and how hard it would be to shut them down completely. They are apparently on their blog, http://www.blogtalkradio.com/cfp-radio, live and their shows are archived on youtube.

They have a smaller audience than Michael Savage. https://blog.talkstreamlive.com/

"The TSL Top 25 Streaming Talk Shows

July 7, 2016 by talkstreamlive
Second Quarter 2016

Rank / Show / Share
1 Michael Savage 24.6
2 Rush Limbaugh 11.2
3 Laura Ingraham 8.5
4 Sean Hannity 5.1
5 Mark Levin 4.2
6 Glenn Beck 3.9
7 George Noory 2.1
8 Alex Jones 2.0 (Tie)"

"The liberal website Salon wrote in April that Savage's radio efforts laid the groundwork for Donald Trump's popularity on the political scene, calling him the "godfather of Trumpism." Trump, the real estate mogul turned politician, is now the presumptive Republican presidential candidate."

http://www.drudgereport.com/

"VISITS TO DRUDGE 9/27/16

051,373,002 PAST 24 HOURS" Thats over 51 million views of the Drudge Report in 24 hours. The Drudge Report is the flagship of the alternative media.

 

[Jonahdog]

Ah, and Michael Savage got his medical degree where and when?

Mikey Savage is like the Trumpeter. They both believe they are the smartest people in the room. Think for a minute about the obnoxious people you know who know they are the smartest people in the room---they're not.

 

[northwye]

More TOL quarreling - without any information or insight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Savage

"He holds master's degrees from the University of Hawaii in medical botany and medical anthropology, and a Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley in nutritional ethnomedicine. As Michael Weiner, he has written books on nutrition, herbal medicine, and homeopathy; as Michael Savage, he has written four political books that have reached The New York Times Best Seller List."

But he is not a Leftist,
and is that why he is not liked by some here?

 

[Jose Fly]

Ah, and Michael Savage got his medical degree where and when?

Mikey Savage is like the Trumpeter. They both believe they are the smartest people in the room. Think for a minute about the obnoxious people you know who know they are the smartest people in the room---they're not.

Northwye is just spamming the thread, trying to bury all the updates from the trial.

 

[Jose Fly]

Defense begins case with a Siletz Tribe supporter, playing of Ammon Bundy call with FBI agent

Ammon Bundy's lawyer Wednesday played for jurors a January call between his client and an FBI negotiator stationed in Bend, but the lengthy conversation may have helped the prosecution's case.

"The last thing we want to do is leave the refuge,'' Ammon Bundy told Agent Christopher Luh on Jan. 21.

If he and his supporters were to leave the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, Bundy continued, "Those people who are doing this will go right back into the refuge, the BLM, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and put the chains right back onto the people.''

Oops. :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

Jose is fascinated with the Bundys

 

[Jose Fly]

Thursday's highlights, including Rev. Franklin Graham's testimony about the last days of the occupation and Jeff Banta admitting that he engaged in "miltary-style training" at the refuge including serving as an armed guard in the tower.

 

[Jose Fly]

Monday's highlights, including that Sheriff Dave Ward "said it was clear Ammon Bundy was "pushing an agenda,'' had lied in his emails to supporters and in statements on social media and was making ultimatums that couldn't be met."

In an interesting exchange between Ward and Ammon Bundy's lawyer...

Mumford also played six clips from a Nov. 17 meeting that Ammon Bundy, along with members of the Pacific Patriots Network, Josephine Oath Keepers and Idaho 3 Percenters, had with the sheriff in the law library of the Harney County courthouse.

Bundy repeatedly told the sheriff that they didn't believe ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr. and son Steven Hammond should go back prison to complete a minimum mandatory federal sentence of five years for arson. Bundy said he believed they "speak for the American people'' and urged the sheriff to intervene and make a decision – "stand with the Hammonds or not.''

"If you do not make a decision, the Hammonds will further suffer and everyone in this room, tens of thousands of others have pledged to not let this happen,'' Bundy told the sheriff. "You're the one who could make this happen peacefully. ... We are not bluffing. This has to end.''

Mumford asked Ward if Bundy was encouraging him to research the Hammond case.

"No, sir, he was asking me to interfere with a lawful court order,'' Ward responded...

On other audio excerpts of the meeting, Ammon Bundy again is heard giving the sheriff two choices: "Stand with the system that abuses people'' or "stand with the people'' and not allow the Hammonds to go to prison. Bundy further told Ward that he felt the sheriff's spirit and knew he was a good person.

"You know where we stand. You know what we're capable of,'' Ammon Bundy said.​

 

[northwye]

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/31228190/assemblywoman-calls-bundy-arrests-political-stunt

"Apr 25, 2016
Written by Cyndi Lundeberg

"Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore is home from Oregon but still upset about the arrests of Ryan, Ammon and Cliven Bundy. Fiore said Cliven Bundy’s arrest was a political stunt"

“I have coined the Bureau of Land Management a bureaucracy of terror,” she said. “[Bundy's arrest] has politics written all over it.”

"Bundy,69, was arrested last Wednesday and taken into custody at the Portland International Airport. The Bundy family said he was in Oregon to visit his sons, Ryan Bundy and Ammon Bundy, who were previously arrested for occupying the wildlife refuge in Harney County."

“These charges are bogus,” Fiore said.

"Unlike his sons, Cliven Bundy is facing charges stemming from the 2014 standoff in Bunkerville, NV. He is facing six felony charges, the most serious of which is assaulting an officer. If convicted, he could spend life in prison and face a fine of more than $1 million. "

"Craig Drummond, a federal criminal defense attorney based in Las Vegas, does not represent the Bundys but has handled a lot of federal cases."

“Am I critical of the government for [arresting Cliven Bundy]? No. Do I think they are always correct in who they hold accountable? Absolutely not," Drummond said.

"Drummond said the lawyers for the Bundys have difficult cases on their hands, specifically because the government does not have to prove the Bundys themselves committed any crimes."

“We don’t have to prove all these specific acts,” Drummond said. “We can say you’re a part of a larger scheme."

The Bundy sons made a mistake in occupying a federally owned wildlife preserve - but that offense does not justify the killing of Levoy Fenicom and the attempt to kill Ryan C. Bundy, Shawna Cox, and Victoria Sharp, age 18, immediately after killing Levoy. Nor does it justify sending the Bundy brothers and others to federal prison for decades. The Shawna Cox cell phone video released by the FBI indicates gun shots being fired into the truck where the three people were inside immediately after Fenicom was killed.

Also here is an interesting piece of information on the shooters who were present at the killing of Levoy Fenicom:

See: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html

"Investigators gave no details to explain why the one FBI agent, a member of the Hostage Rescue Team, wouldn't report the two shots. They also didn't indicate what his four colleagues did to warrant investigation other than saying it was related to conduct after the shooting."

The Cox video records sounds of shots being fired immediately after Levoy Fenicom got out of his truck. Though Fenicom apparently was not hit by these shots, the FBI agent, if he was the one who fired the shots, did fire in the direction of Fenicom. Fenicom as killed a few seconds later, apparently by the Oregon State Police.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage_Rescue_Team

This site says of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team that "Some higher-profile cases include the Waco siege; Ruby Ridge.....................and the January 29, 2016 confrontation with militants involved in the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge." This is a little misleading since there was no confrontation between the FBI Hostage Rescue Team and the Bundy people at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. And "confrontation" implies resistance by the Bundy people or even a gun fight. At the killing of Fenicom on U.S. Highway 395 between the Wildlife Refuge and the town of John Day, there was no armed resistance by the Bundy people to the police or FBI and so the "confrontation" was one sided.

The FBI Hostage Rescue Team gained fame from being involved at Ruby Ridge near the end of the George H.W. Bush regime and at the Waco massacre during the reign of Bill Clinton.

At Ruby Ridge in Northern Idaho after Randy Weaver was charged with selling a sawed off shotgun to a federal agent, U.S. Marshals came after him. On the Weaver property the Marshals killed one of the Weaver dogs and then the boy Sammy Weaver fired in their direction. His friend Kevin Harris also fired at the intruders and one U.S. Marshal was killed. Sammy Weaver was killed Then the FBI Hostage Rescue Team was called in to take over. An FBI sniper shot Randy Weaver and killed his wife Vicki, while she was holding her baby. Randy Weaver survived and was tried in federal court.

"An Idaho jury found him innocent of almost all charges and ruled that Kevin Harris’s shooting of the U.S. marshal was self-defense. Federal Judge Edward Lodge condemned the FBI and issued a lengthy list detailing the Justice Department’s and FBI’s misconduct, fabrication of evidence, and refusals to obey court orders."

Waco was a larger scale "confrontation" which began with a raid on the Branch Davidians by the BATF, who were not successful in overpowering the Davidians.. The FBI took over, which included the Hostage Rescue Team, and in the end most of the Davidians were killed, in a fire and by being shot.

 

[Jose Fly]

Tuesday's highlights, including Ammon Bundy choking up on the stand and saying his dad (Cliven) pushed him to go to Oregon.

Wednesday's highlights, including Bundy claiming he never intended to prevent federal employees from doing their work at the refuge, and that he and the occupiers were armed because otherwise "they wouldn't be taken seriously".

 

[ok doser]

Jose is fascinated with the Bundys

kelly was my favorite :Shimei:

 

[annabenedetti]

Tuesday's highlights, including Ammon Bundy choking up on the stand and saying his dad (Cliven) pushed him to go to Oregon.

Wednesday's highlights, including Bundy claiming he never intended to prevent federal employees from doing their work at the refuge, and that he and the occupiers were armed because otherwise "they wouldn't be taken seriously".

It's been interesting reading through the comments below the highlights.

 

[Jose Fly]

It's been interesting reading through the comments below the highlights.

It's kind of created a little online community. A lot of people are really interested in this trial.

 

[ok doser]

It's kind of created a little online community. A lot of people are really interested in this trial.

a lot of people are retards :idunno: