Thanks for the quotes and your kind words.
I haven't heard from Tony Campolo in a long time. I guess he is still plugging along....
The Bible + Religion = Confusion
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I haven't heard from Tony Campolo in a long time. I guess he is still plugging along....
I see it as pagan politics. Of course, Caesar was similar to our modern notion of dictatorships and tyrannies. But the idea that he was divine, etc. was so much "in the air" and mythology of anyone living in those times, it was more a statement of a shared reality.
When the early Christians--especially Luke--appropriated those exalted titles and applied them to Jesus of Nazareth, he knew exactly what he was doing. It was an act of high treason. And Jesus's Kingdom of God simply meant what the world might be like if God sat on the throne instead of the Emperor.
Christianity used to challenge and disturb the powers and principalities of its day. I wish it would still.
popsthebuilder
New member
You are a fool. History repeats itself. Faith is not based off of politics in any way shape or form. The only religion that is Geist is Christianity which is actually paganism is ancient Roman Catholicism. If you look back in history he will see that all monotheistic religions are based on peace and unity the corruption of man on all levels has twisted true religion into something that is man made and divided. Only a man would make a statement that Christianity or religion or faith follows the corruption of politics. This in itself is proof that man is evil.
popsthebuilder
New member
The only religion that pretends to be Christianity that is actually paganism is the ancient Roman Catholic Church. That was a huge typo I did not mean that Christianity was indeed paganism in any way. The speak to type option on this phone is faulty at times or perhaps it is just my speech.
Not only the ancient Catholic church , but the present day Catholic church.
popsthebuilder
New member
That just kind of makes it sound like practitioners of Catholicism are fully aware of the things that are going on within their religion. Generally speaking I really don't think that's the case. They've been let astray by false tradition and in most cases have been in this tradition for their whole life. It would be very hard for them to change that. But that doesn't mean that they're wrong just because they've been taught wrong intentionally. I would venture as far as to say that many of them are fine because they do believe in Jesus as their salvation and do believe in God as the highest power. I know I would personally have problems with communion and drinking the wine and the way they take their tithes. And I know that their pastors seem to intentionally confuse their flock but none of that is the actual flocks fault. They may not have an exceptionally close connection to God or Christ but as long as they believe in God and believe he is the creator and the only one worth worship then they're fine.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Actually, you seem to hold many views out of accord with the evangelical Protestant:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4423555#post4423555
These views of yours are not "small discrepancies'. :AMR:
AMR
mike_j_beaupre
New member
The first statement on this thread. "There is nothing wrong with the bible"
Well...... That couldn't be a more wrong statement.
I agree with some of the messages.
But explain to me how God had the lowest of human emotions? Greed, jealousy and hate? He has his own creations killed? People live to 130 when we can prove the life span of humans thousands of years ago was no where near the longevity of life now!
Well...... That couldn't be a more wrong statement.
I agree with some of the messages.
But explain to me how God had the lowest of human emotions? Greed, jealousy and hate? He has his own creations killed? People live to 130 when we can prove the life span of humans thousands of years ago was no where near the longevity of life now!
mike_j_beaupre
New member
It's a good story, but no 600year old man lived and then built a boat. It's a good story but a few hundred pages are given to us, while the Vatican library is vast. Ever play telephone game? Use your heads
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
How do you find warrant to claim the "Christian" label with these statements. I suspect some malfeasance is afoot. :AMR:
AMR
Before you do too much posting please familiarize yourself with the forum rules.---->http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55933
I probably focus on myself too much since my "Born Again" experience, but keeping a close watch on myself prevents me from deviating from the path.
Instead of saying to someone: "You produce confusion" the more honest (and Christian way for me) is to be accountable for my feelings and leave myself open to questioning or comments from the other.
I simply say "When you said 'X' I felt confused. What are you trying to communicate here? Would you be willing to explain it to me again."
That way I do not judge and my heart is open.
That's what Jesus did every day of his life.
My point is, dictator or not, most people pretty much accepted that he was divine.
Being a God or a Son of a God was not that unique in Jesus's day.
There were about 12 or so actual charismatic rabbis wandering around Palestine with a crowd of followers. And they were all summarily slaughtered by the Romans.
A historian at that time commented (something like this) "...they come traveling announcing that 'I am God' or the 'son of a god.'
They warn the world will end soon and people should gather 'round them."
When early Christian theologians like Justin Martyr argued about Jesus, the Romans accepted that he was a son of a god. Their beef was that how could a Galilean of peasant birth be a "son of a god." Both sides accepted that certain people could be a son of a god, but the kernel of the argument was a matter of class, not divinity. The lower classes were treated as trash by the pagan Roman rulers.
Based on my experience, I have found it a difficult path to offer historical conclusions about Jesus and the Bible in a way that does not sound "trolling." I feel our faith should be strong enough to withstand any question and we should answer it with the facts, evidence and data we have gathered over the years.
I think any different faith or historical ideas are too often met on TOL with defensiveness, alarm and all-out anger.
That comes from a fear of intellectual inquiry, critical thinking and an inability to try and actually focus on what someone is claiming. It means that giving evidence, facts, data and faith claims should not be diminished. We are all (even the atheists on TOL) doing the best we can with the thoughts and beliefs we bring to the common table.
And if we have questions or disagreements, say them with respect and maturity.
Name-calling like "you are not a Christian," or "You are blasphemous and a heretic" should have no place on TOL.
I just think we should act like adults, using Jesus as our model.
Not that I always do. But at least I endeavor to be aware of the logs in our own eyes before I arrogantly deem to point out the tiny specks of sawdust in our fellow believers.
As fellow Christians we should be able to exchange our ideas and make comments to each other without name-calling.
Are you aware that Jesus said something like "Whosoever calls their brother a fool" is destined for misery in this life ?
History DOES repeat itself. The same great mythological themes are acted out over and over again. One thing I appreciate about a good historical scholar is his or her ability to see a confusion of events and yet reveal a pattern that reflects the underlying hopes and fears.
Religion in Jesus's day WAS political and so reflected the Roman Empire. Jesus's answer to the trick question about the Roman coin is just one example of many. And the injustice and poverty in the countryside was the direct result of political decisions.
The elevated titles that were applied to Jesus after his death such as Lord, Divine, born of a virgin, Savior, were the exact literal terms that were applied to Caesar! It was no accident that Jesus preached his message using the phrase "Kingdom of God."
Going around advocating that the world was better off with God on the throne instead of a pagan and brutal ruler on the throne was a statement of high treason.
And we well know what happened to Jesus at the hands of Rome.
Christianity was based on peace until it got in bed with Rome and the Emperor Constantine.
No Christian man ever joined the military at first. They were just not expected to get involved in the powers and principalities of the day. But after the emperor converted, it became state law for every able-bodied man to serve in the army.
popsthebuilder
New member
You are right and I was wrong to use such a harsh word. I apologise, as I do not know you. Ceaser wasn't divine. Jesus says to not disrupt government but to give them their dues.
Thanks so much for your apology. I am truly humbled and appreciate it.
As a Christian, I certainly do NOT regard Caesar or any leader as divine. My point was to mention that other good people in Jesus's day believed the myth and took it literally.
I don't see evidence for Jesus telling us to "not disrupt the government.
***He was killed by that government.
***The government squeezed family farmers off their land and into the streets.
***The main part of the population was destitute or homeless. Peter and the other fishermen were being squeezed off their jobs because Rome built a couple of large fish-processing plants on the Sea of Galilee (this is a recent archeological finding).
***It was a time of barely contained chaos that finally erupted and led to the Roman-Jewish war in the 70s.
One of the last thing Jesus said was "My Kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."
And all of his parables and short epigrams totally dislocated the political world of his day. It was not the conventional wisdom of Proverbs. It was a wisdom that totally overturned the default world of politics, religion and culture.
You and I might disagree over this: I feel the Kingdom of God Jesus was pointing to was about salvation and transformation in this life. I just don't pick up from the Bible that Jesus cared too much about Heaven. He was here on EARTH because that's the place that actually needs help.
HIS help.
P.S. I do not know you, either. I wish I could get together with you and many others on TOL to share a meal and a beer or a Coke. I would absolutely love that!
popsthebuilder
New member
All I'm saying is that he repeatedly states not to violently cause revolt as it will lead to needless bloodshed. We are to be wholly peaceable in our fight for what is right under God.
Except for the theological mythic figure in Revelation, I also believe that Jesus stood fast for nonviolent.
Since I became a Christian, I have tried to follow a nonviolent life for at least 40 years now. I know that it works and I know I would not be who I am without it.
My screen name "Aikido7" refers to the martial art of aikido. It is the only one that is meant to deal with an opponent without harming them. It seems pretty close to "love your enemies" to my mind. I also was a conscientious objector during the Viet Nam War.