The Bible Fact of Different Gospels

[Idolater]

The pre-1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church accepted the death penalty as a legitimate tool of justice when proportionate to the crime and necessary for public safety and did not explicitly challenge the morality of the death penalty itself. Then in 1997 Pope John Paul II added the "practically nonexistent" comment at the end of paragraph 2267....

1997 version, paragraph 2267:

“Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.​

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.​

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.'”​

Then in 2018 , Pope Francis revised the Catechism of the Catholic Church to state that the death penalty is "inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person."

After 2018 (current version, paragraph 2267):

“Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.​

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.​

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that ‘the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,’ and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.”​

That's what I said Clete. Thanks for nothing.

 

[Idolater]

There's only one way to have eternal life, and that's through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Whatever law you think is going to save you, that's the one the DBR is good news about.

It's the Law that makes the Lord Jesus Christ the One worthy sacrifice for the eternal penalty of sin that I'm most interested in knowing and understanding and living my life according to. When I "believe in" Christ, that's the Law I'm believing in—no other option. There's some theology involved in WHY Jesus was worthy to die for our sins. That Law—you are believing in that, when you believe in Jesus and the Gospel. You have to believe the Sacrifice is worthy. How you do that, is the Law which makes the Sacrifice worthy. A sacrifice, any sacrifice, is a worthy sacrifice due to the logic of the situation. The Law of Moses spells it out, makes it clear. It's a type, of law, which makes a sacrifice worthy, or, rather, that a sacrifice has to comport to, in order to be valid, according to or under that system of law or logic.

 

[Clete]

There's only one way to have eternal life, and that's through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Whatever law you think is going to save you, that's the one the DBR is good news about.

This is true but it has not always been that which much be believed in.
Jesus didn't preach His death and resurrection as the gospel and when He did bring up the fact that He would be killed, the Apostles didn't believe Him and so we know that they weren't preaching it either. Also, none of the Old Testament saints had any idea about a Messiah that would die and be resurrected from the dead for their salvation nor is there any prophet that preached that such needs to be believed. In fact, the first time this is explicitly presented as "the gospel" is in the book of Romans chapter 10.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I do understand his position,

You clearly do not.

and have found it to be false.

My position is what the Bible says.

You find my position false?

Too much of Scripture is discounted.

Which scripture, specifically?

Because my position discounts NO Scripture.

That leads to a certain blindness concerning the Gospel of salvation.

The "gospel of salvation" that you get by mashing two different dispensations together, which either makes Paul a liar, or makes God's separation of Israel from the Gentile nations of no relevance whatsoever, which you still haven't addressed yet?

It is actually so simple even the slowest among us can hear.

Yes, it's easy to be lazy in one's theology, and to just believe whatever feels "right."

But it doesn't mean that what you believe IS correct.

 

[Clete]

That's what I said Clete. Thanks for nothing.

You're as blind as a bat. That isn't at all what you said. In less than three decades your idiot Popes have taken the death penalty from a legitimate punishment for capital crimes to it's complete abolition! The later of which specifically cites the fact that we are created in God's image as the premise for it's abolition in direct and INTENTIONAL contradiction to God's use of that same premise when He instituted the death penalty in Genesis.

It's about as far from a "nothing burger" as you can possibly get!

 

[Clete]

It's the Law that makes the Lord Jesus Christ the One worthy sacrifice for the eternal penalty of sin that I'm most interested in knowing and understanding and living my life according to.

Wrong!

The concept of blood sacrifice came a long long time before the Law (capital L - referring to the Law of Moses).

It is justice that requires death for sin. The Law is just but the point is that justice existed way before the Law existed and both the Law and the sacrifice made at Calvary are predicated on it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're as blind as a bat. That isn't at all what you said. In less than three decades your idiot Popes have taken the death penalty from a legitimate punishment for capital crimes to it's complete abolition! The later of which specifically cites the fact that we are created in God's image as the premise for it's abolition in direct and INTENTIONAL contradiction to God's use of that same premise when He instituted the death penalty in Genesis.

It's about as far from a "nothing burger" as you can possibly get!

It always amazes me that people who claim to put equal relevance on all the apostles completely ignore passages like Romans 1 and Acts 25, which promote the death penalty just as much as Jesus did.

 

[Derf]

This is true but it has not always been that which much be believed in.
Jesus didn't preach His death and resurrection as the gospel and when He did bring up the fact that He would be killed, the Apostles didn't believe Him and so we know that they weren't preaching it either. Also, none of the Old Testament saints had any idea about a Messiah that would die and be resurrected from the dead for their salvation nor is there any prophet that preached that such needs to be believed. In fact, the first time this is explicitly presented as "the gospel" is in the book of Romans chapter 10.

I wasn't talking about the belief. More the fact (see thread title). Good news is good, according to the angels announcing Christ's birth at least, even if you don't go to Bethlehem to see for yourself. But those who went had their faith confirmed.

 

[Right Divider]

• There was a time when all animals were on the menu, then there was a time when certain animals were not permitted to be eaten and now its back to all animals being on the menu again.

You might want to begin this with "no animals on the menu".

Gen 1:29-31 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:29) ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (1:30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. (1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.​

​

It wasn't until after the flood that all animals were on the menu.

Gen 9:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. (9:2) And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. (9:3) Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. ​

 

[Derf]

You might want to begin this with "no animals on the menu".

Gen 1:29-31 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:29) ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (1:30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. (1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.​

​

It wasn't until after the flood that all animals were on the menu.

Gen 9:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. (9:2) And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. (9:3) Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. ​

Does it seem like we will move back to "no animals on the menu" eventually? Even though God seems to like the sweet savor of roasting meat?

 

[glorydaz]

You clearly do not.

Clearly. Did you know that blinders on horses keep them from seeing things that might scare them?

Don’t read James or Peter or Hebrews, or Jude, and most of all, don’t pay any heed to the Gospels, since Jesus only came to the lost sheep of Israel. Clearly that was taken out of context and used inappropriately.

My position is what the Bible says.

You find my position false?

Your position is your opinion of what the Bible says.

Which scripture, specifically?

Because my position discounts NO Scripture.

Failing to rightly understand what is written is the problem. James is the perfect example. You know what I’m talking about. If we weren’t tied to a particular doctrine, we might find more hidden truths. Things the Lord opens to our eyes. It happens all the time in a believer’s life. Those ahha moments when reading the word, and a new and deeper meaning opens up, and you thank the Lord for His truth. You know what I’m talking about.

Too much rightly dividing can be taken to an extreme. Compartmentalizing things to such a degree there is no room left for growth. That depth must include not only the prophets and apostles (plural), but the ongoing revelations by the Holy Spirit and the Living Word of God. Those that lead us back, once again, to the apostles (Gospels) and the prophets.

The "gospel of salvation" that you get by mashing two different dispensations together, which either makes Paul a liar, or makes God's separation of Israel from the Gentile nations of no relevance whatsoever, which you still haven't addressed yet?

Alright, the way you phrased that makes it clear where we differ. God didn’t put a “separation of Israel from the Gentile nations”, unless you didn’t mean it that way. He added the gentiles to the Olive Tree, which is believing Israel.

Romans 11:And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olivetree;​

Yes, it's easy to be lazy in one's theology, and to just believe whatever feels "right."

But it doesn't mean that what you believe IS correct.

I know what would feel right, and so far it’s scarce around here. 🥹​

​

Psalms 133:1. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!​

 

[glorydaz]

That wasn't a canned response.



If I present you with an image that looks like a rabbit from one perspective, and a duck from the other, and all you can see is the duck, it's not going to matter how much I explain to you that the image shows a rabbit, until you shift your perspective. Until you do so, you will not be able to see the rabbit, and will continue to insist that the image only shows a duck.

Your post was, in its entirety, begging the question and confirmation bias.

You’re such a silly man, but funny, too. Kinda confirms my bias.

 

[glorydaz]

There's only one way to have eternal life, and that's through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Whatever law you think is going to save you, that's the one the DBR is good news about.

Indeed, and those before the cross looked forward just as we must look back.

John 8:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.​

 

[Clete]

You might want to begin this with "no animals on the menu".

Gen 1:29-31 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:29) ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (1:30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. (1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.​

​

It wasn't until after the flood that all animals were on the menu.

Gen 9:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:1) And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. (9:2) And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. (9:3) Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. ​

There are tons of examples I could have listed, the above being only one of dozens.

 

[Clete]

Indeed, and those before the cross looked forward just as we must look back.

John 8:Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.​

No one "looked forward" to the death burial and resurrection of Christ for their salvation. That future event was what made their salvation possible but they didn't know that. Not even the apostles believed it prior to it actually happening and even then they didn't believe it until they saw the empty tomb and at least one didn't believe it until he placed his own hands into Christ's wounds.

 

[Clete]

It always amazes me that people who claim to put equal relevance on all the apostles completely ignore passages like Romans 1 and Acts 25, which promote the death penalty just as much as Jesus did.

Nothing a Catholic does amazes me anymore. They are completely irrational. They believe what they want to believe and nothing else and for no reason other than that's what they want to believe. No evidence nor any argument can move them a single inch from whatever dogma they've chosen for themselves. It is literally anything goes. If the Pope showed up and tongue kissed RuPaul on international television, they'd all get a subscriptions to gay porn and call it family planning.

 

[Clete]

Does it seem like we will move back to "no animals on the menu" eventually? Even though God seems to like the sweet savor of roasting meat?

I can't imagine that the marriage feast of the Lamb will be vegetarian in nature. It seems natural to assume that it will be similar to traditional Jewish wedding feasts.

 

[glorydaz]

No one "looked forward" to the death burial and resurrection of Christ for their salvation. That future event was what made their salvation possible but they didn't know that. Not even the apostles believed it prior to it actually happening and even then they didn't believe it until they saw the empty tomb and at least one didn't believe it until he placed his own hands into Christ's wounds.

Then what do you think Jesus meant when He said Abraham looked forward to His day? and David.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.​

​

Acts 2:25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:​

 

[Derf]

I can't imagine that the marriage feast of the Lamb will be vegetarian in nature. It seems natural to assume that it will be similar to traditional Jewish wedding feasts.

Do they have lamb?

 

[glorydaz]

No one "looked forward" to the death burial and resurrection of Christ for their salvation. That future event was what made their salvation possible but they didn't know that. Not even the apostles believed it prior to it actually happening and even then they didn't believe it until they saw the empty tomb and at least one didn't believe it until he placed his own hands into Christ's wounds.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said Abraham looked forward to His day?

And, what is this? Talk of a coming Saviour is all throughout the Bible.

Isaiah 45: 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none of other.​

​

Psalm 22 gives some graphic details of Messiah’s death. Coincidence?​