The Bible and Torah

Jacob

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Living according to Torah and living according to the Bible includes the Prophets and the Writings and the New Testament.

So we have the Torah and the Neviim and the Kethuvim (these are the TaNaKh). This is the Torah (Law) and the Neviim (Prophets) and the Kethuvim (Writings). We also have the New Testament Scriptures or the New Testament Writings. Some refer to the Apostle's Writings.

The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The Written Torah. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. This is holy or sacred scripture. The scripture, scriptures. The Bible either includes the New Testament or the Christian Bible does. The Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament is the Bible, or the Old Testament and the New Testament (are these designations correct?). Usually when a person says Bible they mean the Christian Bible. But the word Bible can be for the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible as well.

Start with Torah. Everything starts there.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Living according to Torah and living according to the Bible includes the Prophets and the Writings and the New Testament.

So we have the Torah and the Neviim and the Kethuvim (these are the TaNaKh). This is the Torah (Law) and the Neviim (Prophets) and the Kethuvim (Writings). We also have the New Testament Scriptures or the New Testament Writings. Some refer to the Apostle's Writings.

The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The Written Torah. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. This is holy or sacred scripture. The scripture, scriptures. The Bible either includes the New Testament or the Christian Bible does. The Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament is the Bible, or the Old Testament and the New Testament (are these designations correct?). Usually when a person says Bible they mean the Christian Bible. But the word Bible can be for the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible as well.

Start with Torah. Everything starts there.

Where are you getting this information from?
 

patrick jane

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Living according to Torah and living according to the Bible includes the Prophets and the Writings and the New Testament.

So we have the Torah and the Neviim and the Kethuvim (these are the TaNaKh). This is the Torah (Law) and the Neviim (Prophets) and the Kethuvim (Writings). We also have the New Testament Scriptures or the New Testament Writings. Some refer to the Apostle's Writings.

The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The Written Torah. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. This is holy or sacred scripture. The scripture, scriptures. The Bible either includes the New Testament or the Christian Bible does. The Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament is the Bible, or the Old Testament and the New Testament (are these designations correct?). Usually when a person says Bible they mean the Christian Bible. But the word Bible can be for the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible as well.

Start with Torah. Everything starts there.
Everything starts with the Christian Holy Bible - OT and NT - that's it.
 

Jacob

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What people? Study from what sources?
Study of Torah, the TaNaKh, and the New Testament. These are the sources.

As for people I have no one teacher. I was taught as a child that the Holy Spirit is to be the (our, my) teacher, not man. But I found that people in the church can Biblically be called teachers, as well as many other ministries and gifts.

What do you have a question about?

You have been asking me. Do you believe there are 39 books called the Old Covenant? The TaNaKh before the Old Testament. It is Jewish or Hebrew, and the Scriptures are not old.

The Old Covenant is not the Torah or the Five Books of Moses. There is a first covenant and a second covenant, a new covenant. Which covenant is the first covenant?
 

6days

New member
Is your question is 'What is the Bible'? I don't think Jews typically refer to scripture as 'The Bible'.
 

CherubRam

New member
Living according to Torah and living according to the Bible includes the Prophets and the Writings and the New Testament.

So we have the Torah and the Neviim and the Kethuvim (these are the TaNaKh). This is the Torah (Law) and the Neviim (Prophets) and the Kethuvim (Writings). We also have the New Testament Scriptures or the New Testament Writings. Some refer to the Apostle's Writings.

The Torah is the Jewish Bible. The Written Torah. The TaNaKh is the Hebrew Bible. This is holy or sacred scripture. The scripture, scriptures. The Bible either includes the New Testament or the Christian Bible does. The Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament is the Bible, or the Old Testament and the New Testament (are these designations correct?). Usually when a person says Bible they mean the Christian Bible. But the word Bible can be for the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible as well.

Start with Torah. Everything starts there.

4Q534 …of his hand: two…a birthmark. And the hair will be red.
Chosen One And there will be lentils on…and small birthmarks on his thigh.
And after two years he will know how to distinguish one thing
from another. In his youth he will be like…a man who knows
nothing until the time when he knows the three Books.
And then he will acquire wisdom and learn understanding…
vision to come to him on his knees. And with his father and
his ancestors…life and old age. Council and prudence will be
with him, and he will know the secrets of man. His wisdom
will reach all the peoples, and he will know the secrets of all
the living. And all their designs against him will come to
nothing, and his rule over the living will be great. His designs
will succeed, for he is the Elect of God. His birth and the
breath of his spirit…and his designs will be forever…
 

Jacob

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Banned
Is your question is 'What is the Bible'? I don't think Jews typically refer to scripture as 'The Bible'.
Do you mean the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible? There is also the Christian Bible or simply the Bible.

The Bible is either the Jewish Bible, the Hebrew Bible, or with the New Testament Writings / Scripture, the Bible.

The Bible can of course be thought to be Christian though it is thoroughly or entirely Jewish. Even Paul's letter to Titus came from Paul, who was of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew, a Pharisee, of Israel, though Titus was not circumcised and was not required to be circumcised. He was still a part of the church, the body of Christ. Timothy's Mother was Jewish, so he knew the scriptures even before Paul had him circumcised. Circumcision is either required to be a part of Israel or now in Christ it is not. That is where the debate about uncircumcised believers is in relation to Israel, in relation to belief in God and Christ, who was and is Himself a Jew.

Were there other authors or recipients of the New Testament books or letters who were not circumcised (were they Jewish or of Israel)? The Apostle's Writings are scripture, those books or letters written by the apostles (how many apostles?).

Are the Apostle's Writings different or the same as the New Testament Writings / Scriptures?

What are the Apostle's Writings?

There are 27 books in the New Testament. The TaNaKh is Jewish and it is Scripture.

The Christian New Testament.

What is meant by the Apostle's Writings?

The word Bible means book and it refers to scripture or the collection of writings, books, or scrolls, however they are referred to. In the New Testament (a name for 27 books after the TaNaKh or Old Testament), we find letters, or epistles, in addition to books.

Scripture was written on scrolls, in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek. I have heard that part of the Bible was written in Aramaic. I do not know if scripture was written on anything other than scrolls. Was it written on scrolls?

What is the Bible is a good question. A Jew may not be a Christian, but often answering this question involves recognition of the Bible as it is generally or usually understood, meaning the Christian Bible, whether there is understanding of the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible or not. There is the TaNaKh or holy scripture or sacred scripture and the New Testament or the Apostle's Writings. There is the New Testament, also accepted as Scripture. The New Testament Scriptures or New Testament Scripture as a whole or a body or collection of scripture. Obviously, these writings, scriptures were written down or accepted in the church even before a New Testament or Biblical canon. When were the Jewish Scriptures organized, collected, arranged, or established? Was there an Old Testament or Old Covenant before there was the Apostle's Writings or the New Testament? Were the Apostle's Writings, whatever they are, before or after the New Testament?

There were letters in circulation among the churches, even before they were canonized. But is there a Jewish and Christian canon or is canon the wrong word? The Christian canon, the Bible, was established, 66 books or more (was there a reduction to 66 books, or was there 66 and then some people accepted more?). If someone accepts 66 books, might they come to accept more later, or would they believe that only 66 books are inspired?

The TaNaKh is 24 books, the 39 of the Christian Old Testament.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh.
 
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Jacob

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Banned
Everything starts with the Christian Holy Bible - OT and NT - that's it.
Are you referring to reading the Bible before studying the church or Christian Theology? Are you talking about Christian living or the Christian life?

Many point out that the Bible, or the Christian Bible, has the Old Testament and the New Testament. That is, the 39 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New Testament.

In any case, we should read the Bible. How we understand the Bible, even in its arrangement (of books) is important. Are there divisions and sections? The way Christians view the Bible is often different from how Jews do, unless a Christian accepts the TaNaKh. The Old Testament, or Old Testament Scripture, as it is referred to, is really the TaNaKh with a different book order and arrangement. But the term Old Testament or Old Covenant may be misleading. It requires reading or understanding the books or covenants of the Bible, the TaNaKh, Holy / Sacred Scripture. Which covenant is the first covenant? Which covenant is the first covenant spoken of in scripture reading straight through in the TaNaKh, Old Testament, or Chronological Bible? Which is the first covenant spoken of by the writer of the book of Hebrews who spoke also of a second covenant? The first covenant spoken of the by the author of Hebrews is the covenant God made with the nation of Israel. This is not a covenant made with Adam and Eve. Was there a covenant made with Adam and Eve? That would be a good place to start. There are covenants (God made with his people) before the covenant God made with the nation (the people) of Israel. They are either different and speak about different things in a way that they are not connected, or there is a way in which they are connected, even if simply or only that they were made with God's people. Further discussion may be required.
 

Jacob

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Banned
4Q534 …of his hand: two…a birthmark. And the hair will be red.
Chosen One And there will be lentils on…and small birthmarks on his thigh.
And after two years he will know how to distinguish one thing
from another. In his youth he will be like…a man who knows
nothing until the time when he knows the three Books.
And then he will acquire wisdom and learn understanding…
vision to come to him on his knees. And with his father and
his ancestors…life and old age. Council and prudence will be
with him, and he will know the secrets of man. His wisdom
will reach all the peoples, and he will know the secrets of all
the living. And all their designs against him will come to
nothing, and his rule over the living will be great. His designs
will succeed, for he is the Elect of God. His birth and the
breath of his spirit…and his designs will be forever…

I do not know what you are teaching me. Are you teaching me something by presenting this, whatever this is? Do you believe this is for me, or for someone else, or do you believe this is important to post for any particular reason?

I don't know what you are posting here, what you have posted here actually, or why you have posted it. I am sorry that I don't. But having read the Bible I don't know what if anything I can say about it. I have nothing to say about this. I do not know where this comes from or why you posted it here. I am exercising caution in relation to your post here. What is it? What have you posted here? According to your understanding, does it have anything to do with scripture? What is 4Q534? Is this a fragment of something from somewhere? I do not know what you are posting, where it comes from, why you have posted it, or how it relates to what I have posted in the way you see or understand by your personal or by your own understanding.

Do you understand the Torah? Have you read and understood the TaNaKh? Do you know about the Christian Old Testament? Have you read the New Testament or the Bible?
 

Jacob

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Are the terms Old Covenant or Old Testament used in reference to scripture? If so, how, why, and how so? Are they proper or right terms for scripture?

Does the Bible refer to a covenant in the Bible as old?

Is scripture, whether Torah or TaNaKh, properly referred to as the Old Covenant?

Does the term Old Covenant refer to the Torah while the term Old Testament refers to the TaNaKh with the arrangement into the 39 books ordered in a different way? I don't know this to be the case. The 39 books are either referred to as the Old Covenant or the Old Testament? Which came first? Are both used to refer to the 39 books, or just the term Old Testament? I heard once that the 39 books are the Old Covenant, I think, but I don't know if the first 5 books of the Bible have been referred to as the Old Covenant, or even if the term Old Covenant has ever been used in reference to Scripture. I believe the 39 books have been called the Old Covenant and the Old Testament. I am not certain of this, but I believe it to be true. I do not know why this is so.

Some believe the Old Covenant began with or involves a covenant God made with Adam and Eve. This makes a new covenant, or a second covenant, seen in a different way from what the writer of Hebrews appears to have intended, if I have read Hebrews correctly in the past. I have (also) wondered this before, but did not even think about this in my most recent reading of the book of Hebrews.

A first covenant and an old covenant are not the same thing, even if the first covenant is properly the covenant God made with the nation of Israel after the other covenants (first of the two not first in history), when speaking of the new covenant promised by God through the prophet Jeremiah and which came to be or alternatively came to be ratified in Yeshua or Jesus about 2000 years ago. If ratified either this means it came to be or that it had not yet come to be, the later of which I find highly unlikely or speculative. Scripture, or the Bible, reveals that the new covenant came to be in Jesus Christ and was spoken of afterward looking back in light of the present (and I believe the future as well, though not that it had not yet come to be even for the Jewish people or Israel) by Biblical writers or authors (a Biblical writer or author would be Paul, though he is not the only author or writer of New Testament books or letters to speak of the New Testament or even to make explicit mention of it). Consider, for example, the Gospel accounts. In these books we do find mention of the new covenant. The events recorded, of Jesus' life, refer to the new covenant in His own blood, which Paul came to understand later.

But, what is the new covenant according to the book of Jeremiah (the prophet Jeremiah, and what God had said through him in this book, and what we find in Jesus (Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ) in His life recorded in the gospels (the gospel accounts) and about which was written afterward (writings afterward (other New Testament (Writings/)Scriptures), and even about Jesus' life though not in the same detail contained in the Gospels), and in teaching by the apostles to include Paul though the author of the book of Hebrews who mentioned what Jeremiah wrote or what we find in Jeremiah in reference to the new covenant was not mentioned by name in the book of Hebrews (found in the New Testament Writings or the New Testament Scriptures (New Testament Scripture or New Testament Scriptures, New Testament Writings) (Hebrews? for what is the New Testament and what is New Testament Scripture or the New Testament Writings, not necessarily). How the author of Hebrews meant, understood, or wrote what he did, and how it applied to his audience and us is important. But we must understand Jesus lived before this book was written, and the Gospels record Him speaking of the new covenant. So, to start, we need to look to or at Jeremiah the prophet to understand what the new covenant is and to whom it would come. It was to be a new covenant, not like the old which the people broke although God was a husband to them, but it would be for the house of Israel and the house of Judah and it would involve God's law being put within them and being written on their hearts, and He would be their (our if we are of Israel) God and they (us, if we are of Israel or are Israel) would be His people. It is important to be of Israel unless there are Gentiles or people from among the Gentiles grafted in(, and) whether they are called Gentiles any more or not. It is possible to be a believer, a member of the body of Christ, the church, and not be circumcised. This ends up being the same issue of whether or not you can be of Israel and not have been circumcised. Circumcision is not required to be a part of the church, the body of Christ, though it may or may not be required to be a part of Israel (according to the Law it (circumcision) is required to observe Passover and (as a part of the whole thing) be called among God's people Israel observing all of God's Law). The only other option for observing Passover, whether in the land (no, I think no) in Jerusalem (the requirement of the temple being there is there, and my understanding is that it is not there), or outside of the land, is that it would be a teaching Passover, whether Messianic or only or completely Jewish. That is, it may be true that some Gentiles have observed Passover without being circumcised though I have being a person who is circumcised. The question of whether or not Passover is to be continued to be observed, and if there will be a temple again one day, is there, in light of what Yeshua (Jesus) accomplished for us in dying for our sins (Christ our Passover (has been sacrificed for us (a picture of how He took our place as the lamb (from among the sheep or from among the goats (see Shemot (Exodus) 12:5))))) once for all (all time or all people, must read in context to understand and the reason for this question may not be apparent). Once was enough and all that is needed for you and I to be forgiven, given the Holy Spirit by faith in believing, and resurrected among the righteous to eternal life.

About the new covenant from Jeremiah... read Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB or (edit- from) (an)other translation.
 

Jacob

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The only other possibility is that the new covenant had not yet come to be either in Jesus even with Him speaking of it referring to the new covenant in His own blood or in or with Paul or others speaking about it, that it came to be in AD 70, or when Israel became a nation again (can this be said), or sometime after that even to say that it has not occurred yet. But this crux of this argument is that Israel rejected the Messiah while we find that the first believers were Jews of Israel. The early church was entirely Jewish. The rejection of Israel was an in part and in reference to how the good news of the gospel came or could come or could be and was sent to the Gentiles bringing about repentance unto faith in God and Yeshua (Jesus) as had been first granted to Israel. If the time of the Gentiles is or will be complete soon, then when will all Israel be saved (what does all Israel mean, all believing Israel, Israel as a whole, Israel throughout time, or Israel in such a way that what God is doing is either obvious and plain to the Jewish people and the whole world or which includes them and, possibly throughout time, Israel from when the gospel was first proclaimed. We need to know what the gospel is. We need also to be mindful of that there are interpretations of what Jeremiah 31:34 means. See Jeremiah 31:34 NASB or some other translation.

R words.

Restoration.
Redemption.
Reconciliation.

See Romans 11:15 NASB whether you are of Israel or not.

See Acts 5:31 NASB and LINK to repentance Israel.

Gentiles read the following verse, understood by believing Israel (us and them when this was written, we I understand as a Christian and a Jewish convert or proselyte to Israel, Messianic or not (I do believe Yeshua to be the Messiah, or Jesus to be the Christ (God's anointed) either way).

Acts 11:18 NASB - 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
 

Jacob

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I am honest I don't know what this verse from my link refers to, not having spent much time with it.

Isaiah 30:15 NASB - 15 For thus the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said, "In repentance and rest you will be saved, In quietness and trust is your strength. "But you were not willing,
 

CherubRam

New member
I do not know what you are teaching me. Are you teaching me something by presenting this, whatever this is? Do you believe this is for me, or for someone else, or do you believe this is important to post for any particular reason?

I don't know what you are posting here, what you have posted here actually, or why you have posted it. I am sorry that I don't. But having read the Bible I don't know what if anything I can say about it. I have nothing to say about this. I do not know where this comes from or why you posted it here. I am exercising caution in relation to your post here. What is it? What have you posted here? According to your understanding, does it have anything to do with scripture? What is 4Q534? Is this a fragment of something from somewhere? I do not know what you are posting, where it comes from, why you have posted it, or how it relates to what I have posted in the way you see or understand by your personal or by your own understanding.

Do you understand the Torah? Have you read and understood the TaNaKh? Do you know about the Christian Old Testament? Have you read the New Testament or the Bible?

It is from the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it is about Michael who lives in the last days. The three books is the "laws," "prophets," and "mysteries." The books of mysteries would for example be other writings, such as Paul's writings; or also, The Dead Sea Scrolls. Historical writings often have mysteries and would not always be another class of books. The person being spoken of in 4Q534 is Michael. That is all I have to say about the matter. Bye.
 

TweetyBird

New member
Study of Torah, the TaNaKh, and the New Testament. These are the sources.

As for people I have no one teacher. I was taught as a child that the Holy Spirit is to be the (our, my) teacher, not man. But I found that people in the church can Biblically be called teachers, as well as many other ministries and gifts.

What do you have a question about?

You have been asking me. Do you believe there are 39 books called the Old Covenant? The TaNaKh before the Old Testament. It is Jewish or Hebrew, and the Scriptures are not old.

The Old Covenant is not the Torah or the Five Books of Moses. There is a first covenant and a second covenant, a new covenant. Which covenant is the first covenant?

The information you gave in your OP did not come from the Torah, Tanakh or the NT. That is why I asked what your sources are.
 

TweetyBird

New member
4Q534 …of his hand: two…a birthmark. And the hair will be red.
Chosen One And there will be lentils on…and small birthmarks on his thigh.
And after two years he will know how to distinguish one thing
from another. In his youth he will be like…a man who knows
nothing until the time when he knows the three Books.
And then he will acquire wisdom and learn understanding…
vision to come to him on his knees. And with his father and
his ancestors…life and old age. Council and prudence will be
with him, and he will know the secrets of man. His wisdom
will reach all the peoples, and he will know the secrets of all
the living. And all their designs against him will come to
nothing, and his rule over the living will be great. His designs
will succeed, for he is the Elect of God. His birth and the
breath of his spirit…and his designs will be forever…

Why quote esoteric DSS frags which are not Biblical but written my mystics?
 

TweetyBird

New member
Scripture was written on scrolls, in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek. I have heard that part of the Bible was written in Aramaic. I do not know if scripture was written on anything other than scrolls. Was it written on scrolls?

The OT was not originally written in Hebrew - only from the time of David and onward. There was no Hebrew until about 900BCE. Hebrew evolved from proto-canaanite/akkadian as did Arabic, Aramaic, Greek, etc. In fact, the OT contains loan words from Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Egyptian, Persian, Chaldean. The "original" texts were written on scrolls, the 10 Commandments on stone tablets. There were no books back then :)

What is the Bible is a good question. A Jew may not be a Christian, but often answering this question involves recognition of the Bible as it is generally or usually understood, meaning the Christian Bible, whether there is understanding of the Jewish Bible or the Hebrew Bible or not. There is the TaNaKh or holy scripture or sacred scripture and the New Testament or the Apostle's Writings. There is the New Testament, also accepted as Scripture. The New Testament Scriptures or New Testament Scripture as a whole or a body or collection of scripture. Obviously, these writings, scriptures were written down or accepted in the church even before a New Testament or Biblical canon. When were the Jewish Scriptures organized, collected, arranged, or established? Was there an Old Testament or Old Covenant before there was the Apostle's Writings or the New Testament? Were the Apostle's Writings, whatever they are, before or after the New Testament?

You are confusing yourself. The Jews use the Masorectic Mss, which the OT is translated from. The NT was codified from what was written, copied, and sent all over the Greek world, Arabia, and Africa by the writers of the NT. As early as the second century AD, the NT is quoted by various writers. The entire Bible, from Gen to Rev is the inspired words of God.

The word "TaNaKh" is a Talmudic concept, a division to schedule the one and two year reading cycles in Judaism. The Bible is one continuous written words of the Lord from Gen to Rev.

Once again, the information you are providing does not come from the Bible, but from outside sources. What are they?
 
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