The Absolute Foreknowledge of God - by Bob Hill
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
LightSon
New member
Not just yet. I'm letting my thoughts gel and I already owe Knight a response on my problems with OV. I've started a response, but it is coming together slowly. Just fyi, I'm lost in the middle between Calvinism and OVism, having problems with both extremes. Thanks for your patience.
Yep, I was deeply offended....
Just as long as you didn't call me lightheaded or lightweight.
Plato; wasn't he a Greek philosopher? If so then perhaps he was not a bible believing person. If not then his ideas should be carefully scrutinized.
Mind and emotions are not one in the same. If we say G-d does indeed change his mind; then show He changes emotion, hate, anger, sad, regret; that is not an example of changing mind; that part of the brain which analyzes, makes a conclusion and set's the will to do; emotions may be an influence to changing mind; or a result of changing the mind. One can change their mind without emotion. I planned to turn left; but I deceided to turn right. I may not have any emotions regarding this change in thought.
Mind and emotions are not one in the same. If we say G-d does indeed change his mind; then show He changes emotion, hate, anger, sad, regret; that is not an example of changing mind; that part of the brain which analyzes, makes a conclusion and set's the will to do; emotions may be an influence to changing mind; or a result of changing the mind. One can change their mind without emotion. I planned to turn left; but I deceided to turn right. I may not have any emotions regarding this change in thought.
Shadowx
New member
Hello Behira
Interesting post..
*Mind and emotions* are not one in the same. If we say G-d does indeed change his mind; then show He changes emotion, hate, anger, sad, regret; that is not an example of changing mind; that part of the brain which analyzes, makes a conclusion and set's the will to do; emotions may be an influence to changing mind; or a result of changing the mind. One can change their mind without emotion. I planned to turn left; but I decided to turn right. I may not have any emotions regarding this change in thought.
God changes both..
He goes from one emotion to the next, and from one frame of mind to the next..
At times he is pleased at other times he is angered..
At times he wants to destroy the object that at times pleases him..
Can we provoke God to change from one emotion to another?
Yeah, we see God pleased and we see him displeased based on our actions. This is simply the consequences of creating beings in a manner so they can love you..
There is nothing imperfect whatsoever about that..
God gets weary with changing his mind. God gets emotional over how much he has changed his mind..
Jer 15:6Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting..
Now, is God really the one choosing Israel as a vessel for some kind of torment of Himself?
If the actions above, are not Israelis, but simply what God predecided for them to do, why does God once again say you are in this mess, because you have forsaken what I want?, not because you are doing what I want.
Eli and God
1sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed
I know I said forever to you Eli, but now..,because of what you did, forget it..
It's God's love that causes him to change his mind. If he made us with the ability to choose him; love. Then we need the ability to reject him.
And because I believe God has made us in this way, It then makes sense to me that he is frustrated at times...angry and.weary...with us..
If he had predestined every aspect of our lives, and was simply making all our choices for us, then God would be expressing emotion with himself, not us..He would be angry, frustrated..and weary of repenting over Himself, not Israel..
Notice the last part of the above verse. "Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. That is change...If one who once honored the Lord is now despising him, i.e., Eli..He will now be lightly esteemed. ..Can you be highly esteemed in God's eyes in the very act that leads to low esteme? If you utterly forsake the way God says leads to honor? You can't be highly esteemed in resisting what God wants for you that leads to high esteme..
Jeremiah 18 - Isaiah 5
I want to do a good thing with you Israel, but if you resist me (God generally allows people ,for the most part, to resist him, because he wants those he loves to love him back) It wont go for you the way I initially wanted it to..
Skip ahead to Isaiah 5, here we see the potter talking about how hard he is trying to do that work he was doing in Jeremiah 18..and he is frustrated.."I did a lot for my vineyard (vessel) to try to get it to produce for me (faith/love/obidience) but it's just not happening...
Some of them responded.., most did not..
God's actions towards us are in part based on our actions in him.
If we violate the spiritual laws that lead to blessings that God has promised, rather then the blessings, we bring misery on ourselves...
You choose
De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
De 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:[B/] that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
If you resist God's voice of a consequence you resist life and length of days.
God doesn't resist his own voice through us..
Can he not get the object of his efforts to do what he wants ?? No, not if he wants them to freely respond to Him[B/] so they can be blessed.. He can't make those whom he wants to freely choose him and love him, who hate him, good..
If he wanted Eli/Israel to do rightly, freely, then he couldn't force him/them not to fall away..
"Plato; wasn't he a Greek philosopher? If so then perhaps he was not a bible believing person. If not then his ideas should be carefully scrutinized"
Yes he was and yes we need to carefully scrutinize.
Those who are of Platonic thought, with regard to God, don't seem to like the notion God may actually hold them responsible for the *control* he has given them..and that he doesn't directly control every action thtat takes place.
For which he himself says, "I didn't command this" "It's because you have forsaken me"
Godbless,
Shadowx
Interesting post..
*Mind and emotions* are not one in the same. If we say G-d does indeed change his mind; then show He changes emotion, hate, anger, sad, regret; that is not an example of changing mind; that part of the brain which analyzes, makes a conclusion and set's the will to do; emotions may be an influence to changing mind; or a result of changing the mind. One can change their mind without emotion. I planned to turn left; but I decided to turn right. I may not have any emotions regarding this change in thought.
God changes both..
He goes from one emotion to the next, and from one frame of mind to the next..
At times he is pleased at other times he is angered..
At times he wants to destroy the object that at times pleases him..
Can we provoke God to change from one emotion to another?
Yeah, we see God pleased and we see him displeased based on our actions. This is simply the consequences of creating beings in a manner so they can love you..
There is nothing imperfect whatsoever about that..
God gets weary with changing his mind. God gets emotional over how much he has changed his mind..
Jer 15:6Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting..
Now, is God really the one choosing Israel as a vessel for some kind of torment of Himself?
If the actions above, are not Israelis, but simply what God predecided for them to do, why does God once again say you are in this mess, because you have forsaken what I want?, not because you are doing what I want.
Eli and God
1sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed
I know I said forever to you Eli, but now..,because of what you did, forget it..
It's God's love that causes him to change his mind. If he made us with the ability to choose him; love. Then we need the ability to reject him.
And because I believe God has made us in this way, It then makes sense to me that he is frustrated at times...angry and.weary...with us..
If he had predestined every aspect of our lives, and was simply making all our choices for us, then God would be expressing emotion with himself, not us..He would be angry, frustrated..and weary of repenting over Himself, not Israel..
Notice the last part of the above verse. "Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. That is change...If one who once honored the Lord is now despising him, i.e., Eli..He will now be lightly esteemed. ..Can you be highly esteemed in God's eyes in the very act that leads to low esteme? If you utterly forsake the way God says leads to honor? You can't be highly esteemed in resisting what God wants for you that leads to high esteme..
Jeremiah 18 - Isaiah 5
I want to do a good thing with you Israel, but if you resist me (God generally allows people ,for the most part, to resist him, because he wants those he loves to love him back) It wont go for you the way I initially wanted it to..
Skip ahead to Isaiah 5, here we see the potter talking about how hard he is trying to do that work he was doing in Jeremiah 18..and he is frustrated.."I did a lot for my vineyard (vessel) to try to get it to produce for me (faith/love/obidience) but it's just not happening...
Some of them responded.., most did not..
God's actions towards us are in part based on our actions in him.
If we violate the spiritual laws that lead to blessings that God has promised, rather then the blessings, we bring misery on ourselves...
You choose
De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
De 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:[B/] that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
If you resist God's voice of a consequence you resist life and length of days.
God doesn't resist his own voice through us..
Can he not get the object of his efforts to do what he wants ?? No, not if he wants them to freely respond to Him[B/] so they can be blessed.. He can't make those whom he wants to freely choose him and love him, who hate him, good..
If he wanted Eli/Israel to do rightly, freely, then he couldn't force him/them not to fall away..
"Plato; wasn't he a Greek philosopher? If so then perhaps he was not a bible believing person. If not then his ideas should be carefully scrutinized"
Yes he was and yes we need to carefully scrutinize.
Those who are of Platonic thought, with regard to God, don't seem to like the notion God may actually hold them responsible for the *control* he has given them..and that he doesn't directly control every action thtat takes place.
For which he himself says, "I didn't command this" "It's because you have forsaken me"
Godbless,
Shadowx