Swine Sausage - Sin?

[jamie]

Can you show me in what is written where Yeshua ate slaughtered lamb?

The Torah required lamb or goat to be killed and eaten by men as the Passover.

To not do so if able was sin.

But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and ceases to keep the Passover, that same person shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of the LORD at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin.
(Numbers 9:13 NKJV)​

Jesus is the Lamb of God symbolizing Passover for the firstborn. Jesus observed God's feasts.

 

[RBBI]

Can a kosher butcher truly drain all blood from an animal? Not possible, and that is why the meat is salted, (to help disperse the remnant blood which still ends up being eaten). I also used to eat meat of land animals until I began to realize that they too are called living souls, and that the soul resides in the blood, and what had happened in the beginning: all creation was perverted from its way, including the animals. How do you suppose Noah new the difference between the clean and unclean animals? The unclean are the birds and beasts of prey which kill and eat other living souls for food. Elohim did not make His creation this way in the beginning. Likewise the fish is a simple common sense understanding: ask yourself if your Elohim would make one living soul just so as to become food for another more powerful living soul? Would your Elohim make one living soul just to be eaten by another more powerful than itself? All of the great sea creatures such as whales, sharks, dolphins, porpoises, all which have skins rather than scales, those are clearly living souls according to the scripture. And what do they eat? They eat the lesser sea creatures such as fish that swarm in schools. The great sea creatures cannot come up onto land and harvest wheat or make bread so they have no choice but to eat what Elohim has made for them to eat in the waters. Thus the lesser sea creatures, such as fish with scales that swarm in schools, are NOT living souls, (and therefore added to the diet of Noah and his sons). However land animals and beasts of the field were not predatory before the fall, and were instead perverted, and thus the predators are those which became unclean such as any of the cat family with paws, claws, such as lions, tigers, leopards, etc., etc. The same is true concerning the unclean fowls of the heavens which are for the most part all of the predatory birds, (and their symbolism in the Parable of the Sower is the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan, in the three respective Gospel accounts where that parable is found). What shall I say then? Killing and eating another living soul is unnatural in the original perfect order of the perfect Creator.



Just eat only the meats that you read of Yeshua eating in the Gospel accounts and how can you go wrong? You desire to be like him correct? As I remember correctly he only ate a piece of broiled fish and that was only after the resurrection. However he also multiplied the bread and the several little fishes when he fed the four thousand and the five thousand, (because fish that swarm in schools are not living souls). And remember that killing and eating another living soul is a typical remnant predatory Nephilim trait. :chuckle:

That's very interesting daqq, and I'd like to hear more on the last sentence, in particular. The living souls point is interesting to me, too. I started boiling all meats in salt water 30 years ago after coming to the Lord. I had a profound spiritual experience for about 10 days which I won't go into on here. But one of the "odd" things was that I could not stand the smell of any meat cooking. I kept checking to see if it was spoiled. It was not spoiled but I couldn't eat it. Granted He had me fasting those 10 days, but I couldn't stand the smell of meat, which I thought was weird considering what a big meat eater I was. Peace

 

[jamie]

The living souls point is interesting to me, too.

Here is what the Torah says about living souls.

You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. (Leviticus 20:25 NKJV)​

Why the instruction to distinguish between clean and unclean creatures? So that the people would not make themselves abominable by eating unclean creatures.

Could the people of Israel eat meat?

And you may eat every animal with cloven hooves, having the hoof split into two parts and that chews the cud, among the animals. (Deuteronomy 14:6 NKJV)

And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. (Deuteronomy 14:26 NKJV)​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Im not under jewish law.

Neither was Noah when he was told to take seven pairs of clean animals and two pairs of all the rest.

Since Noah was not under Jewish law, how did he know which animals were clean animals?

 

[genuineoriginal]

All food is good good good - :TomO:

So, why don't you run around worrying about what you eat according to OT law and keep it to yourself. You won't save anybody while complaining about a ham sandwich.

Paul said that the believers that think they are free to eat anything are the ones that should say nothing about their freedom to eat.

Romans 14:22 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.​

Paul never said the believers that think they should not eat unclean meats were the ones that should keep quiet about it.

 

[daqq]

That's very interesting daqq, and I'd like to hear more on the last sentence, in particular.

Genesis 6:1-4
1. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them:
2. That bney ha-Elohim saw the daughters of men, that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And YHWH said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he also is flesh: yet shall his days be an hundred and twenty years.
4. Ha-Nphilim were in the land in those days, and also after that, when bney ha-Elohim came in unto the daughters of men; and they bare offspring to them, the same were haGibborim of `olam, the men named.

Enoch 7:1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.
Enoch 7:2 And when the Watchers, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamored of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget offspring.
Enoch 7:3 Then their leader Shemyaza said to them, I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise:
Enoch 7:4 And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
Enoch 7:5 But they answered him, and said, We all swear:
Enoch 7:6 And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.
Enoch 7:7 Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon.
Enoch 7:8 That mountain was therefore called Hermon, because they had sworn upon it, and bound themselves by mutual execrations.
Enoch 7:9 And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. These are the chiefs of tens over the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.
Enoch 7:10 Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
Enoch 7:11 And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (three races including Nphilim).
Enoch 7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them:
Enoch 7:13 When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them:
Enoch 7:14 And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, and to devour the flesh of one another, and to drink their blood.
Enoch 7:15 Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

 

[RBBI]

Thanks. I know about the Nephalim but I had not read Enoch. Do we have substantial proof that THIS Enoch is the original mentioned in the NT? Three hundred cubits??? A cubit is 17 inches! Peace

 

[daqq]

Thanks. I know about the Nephalim but I had not read Enoch. Do we have substantial proof that THIS Enoch is the original mentioned in the NT? Three hundred cubits??? A cubit is 17 inches! Peace

Fragments from every section of 1Enoch, (except the section called "Parables") have been recovered at Damasek-Damascus Qumran which makes the 1Enoch text older than any Apostolic writing, (in some cases about two hundred years older). As for the common cubit it is indeed probably equivalent to about 17.1717", however, the passage says "stature" which is not the same as height. A man is the stature of what he thinks of himself in his vain imagination; and from old this usually correlates the greatest accomplishment or building one has made in his life, such as Nimrod and the tower at Babel, (for instance the Great Pyramid at Giza is about three hundred cubits in height, and thus the stature of the builder, but not necessarily in literal terms of the height of a man). The point of the post however was that indeed this record states that the fallen ones corrupted the animals, (probably making predatory species out of some otherwise docile creatures, as previously touched on herein, how the perfect creation was distorted in the beginning). The newly altered predatory animals therefore became "unclean" and this is what I meant by how Noach would have known which species were considered unclean without needing to be told. They were altered from their original creation by the fallen ones and turned into predators, (and likely used for weapons of warfare and hunting). In addition 1Enoch clearly takes a position against the eating of any flesh or blood of animals whatsoever.

 

[RBBI]

Thanks for the info about Enoch. I can believe that about the animals nature changing if for no other reason, I've seen what the love of HaShem poured out on them can do to reverse it. We had a full size collie, a black cat, and a black duck, that all took naps cuddled up to one another in the front yard every day. Love wins. :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

The Torah required lamb or goat to be killed and eaten by men as the Passover.

To not do so if able was sin.

But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and ceases to keep the Passover, that same person shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of the LORD at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin.
(Numbers 9:13 NKJV)​

Jesus is the Lamb of God symbolizing Passover for the firstborn. Jesus observed God's feasts.

That is YOUR version of the Feasts. For the same reason I highlighted in blue what the father says in Isaiah about THEIR feasts which He could not stand any more, (He clearly says in Leviticus 23:2 the those therein are HIS Feasts). So it is not that Yeshua would be breaking Torah but rather not in agreement with YOUR interpretation of Torah. You know the drill right? The words of Yeshua, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, do not agree with you:

John 2:13-16
13. And the Passover of the Yhudim was at hand; and Yeshua went up to Yerushalaim:
14. And found in the temple those that sold oxen, and sheep, and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15. And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the money of the changers, and overthrew the tables:
16. And said to them that sold doves, Take these things from here: make not the house of my Father a house of merchandise!

Matthew 21:12-13
12. And Yeshua went into the temple of Elohim, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves:
13. And said to them, IT IS WRITTEN, "MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED THE HOUSE OF PRAYER", but you have made it a den of thieves!

It is the House of Prayer and not a house of literal blood sacrifices of slaughtered living creatures: therefore offer up the calves or bullocks of your lips, (Hosea 14:2). Take WORDS with you to the altar of Elohim and offer up the sweet smelling savor of a broken and contrite heart:

Hosea 14:1-2
1. O Yisrael, return to YHWH your Elohim; for you have fallen by your own iniquity.
2. Take WORDS with you, and turn to YHWH: say unto Him, "Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously," so shall we render the bullocks of our lips.

Psalm 50:9-15
9. I will take no bullock out of your house nor he-goats from your folds:
10. For every beast of the forest is Mine and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are Mine.
12. If I were hungry, I would not tell you: for the world is Mine, and the fullness thereof.
13. Will I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?
14. Offer unto Elohim thanksgiving and pay your vows unto the Most High:
15. And call upon Me in the day of trouble: I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.

Psalm 51:14-19
14. Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O Elohim, thou Elohim of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15. O YHWH, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
16. For you desire not sacrifice; or else would I give it: You delight not in burnt offering.
17. The sacrifices of Elohim are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O Elohim, you will not despise.
18. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build the walls of Yerushalaim.
19. Then shall you be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with ascending offering, and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks [of their lips] upon your altar.

It never was about slaying innocent creatures and presenting their blood to appease an angry God. Even from the times of the prophets, such as Hosea, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others, and well before the advent of Messiah, it was already very clear and remains very clear that the Torah was and is being hijacked by carnivores who walk according to the eyes, mind, and belly of the flesh.

 

[jamie]

That is YOUR version of the Feasts. For the same reason I highlighted in blue what the father says in Isaiah about THEIR feasts which He could not stand any more, (He clearly says in Leviticus 23:2 the those therein are HIS Feasts).

Are you claiming Jesus did not observe God's feasts? Surely the Jews would have mentioned it.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Here is what the Torah says about living souls.

You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. (Leviticus 20:25 NKJV)​

Why the instruction to distinguish between clean and unclean creatures? So that the people would not make themselves abominable by eating unclean creatures.

Could the people of Israel eat meat?

And you may eat every animal with cloven hooves, having the hoof split into two parts and that chews the cud, among the animals. (Deuteronomy 14:6 NKJV)

And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. (Deuteronomy 14:26 NKJV)​

Not spiritually, though you have and will.




Barnabas 10:1
But forasmuch as Moses said; Ye shall not eat seine nor eagle nor
falcon nor crow nor any fish which hath no scale upon it, he
received in his understanding three ordinances.

Barnabas 10:2
Yea and further He saith unto them in Deuteronomy; And I will lay
as a covenant upon this people My ordinances. So then it is not a
commandment of God that they should not bite with their teeth, but
Moses spake it in spirit.

Barnabas 10:3
Accordingly he mentioned the swine with this intent. Thou shalt not
cleave, saith he, to such men who are like unto swine; that is, when
they are in luxury they forget the Lord, but when they are in want
they recognize the Lord, just as the swine when it eateth knoweth not
his lord, but when it is hungry it crieth out, and when it has
received food again it is silent.

Barnabas 10:4
Neither shalt thou eat eagle nor falcon nor kite nor crow. Thou
shalt not, He saith, cleave unto, or be likened to, such men who now
not how to provide food for themselves by toil and sweat, but in
their lawlessness seize what belongeth to others, and as if they were
walking in guilelessness watch and search about for some one to rob
in their rapacity, just as these birds alone do not provide food for
themselves, but sit idle and seek how they may eat the meat that
belongeth to others, being pestilent in their evil-doings.

Barnabas 10:5
And thou shalt not eat, saith He, lamprey nor polypus nor cuttle
fish . Thou shalt not, He meaneth, become like unto such men, who
are desperately wicked, and are already condemned to death, just as
these fishes alone are accursed and swim in the depths, not swimming
on the surface like the rest, but dwell on the ground beneath the
deep sea.

Barnabas 10:6
Moreover thou shalt not eat the hare. Why so? Thou shalt not be
found a corrupter of boys, nor shalt thou become like such persons;
for the hare gaineth one passage in the body every year; for
according to the number of years it lives it has just so many
orifices.

Barnabas 10:7
Again, neither shalt thou eat the hyena; thou shalt not, saith He,
become an adulterer or a fornicator, neither shalt thou resemble such
persons. Why so? Because this animal changeth its nature year by
year, and becometh at one time male and at another female.

Barnabas 10:8
Moreover He hath hated the weasel also and with good reason. Thou
shalt not, saith He, become such as those men of whom we hear as
working iniquity with their mouth for uncleanness, neither shalt thou
cleave unto impure women who work iniquity with their mouth. For
this animal conceiveth with its mouth.

 

[patrick jane]

Barnabas 10:8
Moreover He hath hated the weasel also and with good reason. Thou
shalt not, saith He, become such as those men of whom we hear as
working iniquity with their mouth for uncleanness, neither shalt thou
cleave unto impure women who work iniquity with their mouth. For
this animal conceiveth with its mouth.

what the .... is Barnabas ?

 

[achduke]

I'm surprised to discover that there are people who use the Bible to say that certain foods, such as pork, are unclean and sinful. Various verses seem to clearly indicate we can't defile ourselves by the type of food we eat.

Ex...Mark 7:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

I was using Acts 10, Peters vision, to show that there is no unclean foods. The counter argument is that the food in Acts 10 in only to be taken metaphorically.

What say you.... is it a sin to eat oysters, pork, *blood sausage, head cheese etc?

I guess maybe God changed his mind about swine? Isaiah 66 talks about God's end time judgement.

Forgoing swine does not save you but eating swine does not save you either. God forbid it so I choose to not eat it. To each their own and God will be their judge. I do not see what it hurts by not eating swine.

Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Isaiah 66:17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, to go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together," says the LORD.

 

[daqq]

Barnabas 10:1
But forasmuch as Moses said; Ye shall not eat seine nor eagle nor
falcon nor crow nor any fish which hath no scale upon it, he
received in his understanding three ordinances.

Barnabas 10:2
Yea and further He saith unto them in Deuteronomy; And I will lay
as a covenant upon this people My ordinances. So then it is not a
commandment of God that they should not bite with their teeth, but
Moses spake it in spirit.

Barnabas 10:3
Accordingly he mentioned the swine with this intent. Thou shalt not
cleave, saith he, to such men who are like unto swine; that is, when
they are in luxury they forget the Lord, but when they are in want
they recognize the Lord, just as the swine when it eateth knoweth not
his lord, but when it is hungry it crieth out, and when it has
received food again it is silent.

Barnabas 10:4
Neither shalt thou eat eagle nor falcon nor kite nor crow. Thou
shalt not, He saith, cleave unto, or be likened to, such men who now
not how to provide food for themselves by toil and sweat, but in
their lawlessness seize what belongeth to others, and as if they were
walking in guilelessness watch and search about for some one to rob
in their rapacity, just as these birds alone do not provide food for
themselves, but sit idle and seek how they may eat the meat that
belongeth to others, being pestilent in their evil-doings.

:thumb: Spot on, my friend.
And people should realize that Barnabas is a FIRST CENTURY manuscript.

Are you claiming Jesus did not observe God's feasts? Surely the Jews would have mentioned it.

The "inner city" Jews and the desert community Essenes vehemently disagreed in doctrine and the Damasek-Qumran community were also Zadokite brethren of the inner city Tzaddukim chief priests, (with whom they vehemently disagreed). We may not have heard very loudly of such a dispute because the apostles were neither P'rushim nor Tzaddukim nor Scribes and what you have before you in the writings was written by the apostles. In addition I already said clearly that Yeshua obviously observed the Passover of YHWH but not the way in which you seem to expect him to have observed it. It is you who already tried to force your doctrine into the scripture when you quoted Mark 14:12 and implied that Yeshua and his talmidim must have eaten lamb at the Seder.

Are you saying Jesus didn't observe Passover prior to his sacrifice?

Did Jesus teach his disciples to not eat meat?

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?” (Mark 14:12 NKJV)​

The scripture clearly refutes you in this also because then you went on to say that Yeshua is "the Lamb of God symbolizing Passover for the firstborn", (which post I quoted previously above) when the truth of the matter is right there in the same passage for all to see. There is no lamb at the Seder and Yeshua himself breaks BREAD and tells his disciples that the BREAD is his body:

Mark 14:22
22. And as they did eat, Yeshua took BREAD, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, TAKE, EAT: THIS IS MY BODY.

WHERE IS THE LAMB IF THIS IS THE SEDER? :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

:thumb: Spot on, my friend.
And people should realize that Barnabas is a FIRST CENTURY manuscript.

Barny ain't in my Bible so I don't care what he wrote. Rules and regulations. Besides, things changed when Jesus Christ came, in case you hadn't heard - lain:

 

[patrick jane]

I guess maybe God changed his mind about swine? Isaiah 66 talks about God's end time judgement.

Forgoing swine does not save you but eating swine does not save you either. God forbid it so I choose to not eat it. To each their own and God will be their judge. I do not see what it hurts by not eating swine.

Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Isaiah 66:17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, to go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together," says the LORD.

it doesn't hurt to eat it either. Why else did God make hogs ?

 

[RBBI]

it doesn't hurt to eat it either. Why else did God make hogs ?

To cast demons into? :chuckle:

 

[Nick M]

I'm surprised to discover that there are people who use the Bible to say that certain foods, such as pork, are unclean and sinful. Various verses seem to clearly indicate we can't defile ourselves by the type of food we eat.

Israel was to be set apart from the world. There is nothing for the Body with that law.

 

[Nick M]

It is part of Jewish Law to not eat some types of food. It was not meant for Gentiles. Due to the history of Christianity, and how it grew out of Judaism, you still hear echoes of this.

Rep +1