So then enter by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: but narrow is the gate, and straight is the way that leads into life, and few there be that find it. There is a way of the sons of light and a way of the sons of darkness; the sons of light walk in the light of Messiah, but the sons of darkness walk in the dark light of night, groping because of the darkness within themselves. Once upon the flicker of a flame there was a Baker who carried all his bread in three baskets over his head. One day the fowls of the air, which are the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan, came and stole all the bread from the uppermost basket of his head: do not allow the tares of the air to steal the bread from your head like Judas Simon Baker, (Genesis 40:16-22). :crackup:
Swine Sausage - Sin?
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So then enter by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: but narrow is the gate, and straight is the way that leads into life, and few there be that find it. There is a way of the sons of light and a way of the sons of darkness; the sons of light walk in the light of Messiah, but the sons of darkness walk in the dark light of night, groping because of the darkness within themselves. Once upon the flicker of a flame there was a Baker who carried all his bread in three baskets over his head. One day the fowls of the air, which are the Wicked one, the Devil, and the Satan, came and stole all the bread from the uppermost basket of his head: do not allow the tares of the air to steal the bread from your head like Judas Simon Baker, (Genesis 40:16-22). :crackup:
Lon
Well-known member
And this is a tired canard of the weak-minded and lazy. You go ahead and assert your 'spiritual' superiority. It is very much bound in pharisaical whitewash who both missed the forest for the trees AND asserted their apparent prowess. You are a lord over men kind of chest-thumping guy. Hope you take a long hard look at your blowhard self. You started simpleminded and have, over the years, extrapolated to self-importance rather than seeking the mind of Christ. You thump your private interpretation instead of seeking Him in all things. No, for you, this is about me and you and you take my eyes off of the Savior if I go down your road. Again, I choose not to entertain your distractions AND hope I well reflect the image you cast, in service to you, whatever chips may fall. You need time for introspection and time with Jesus our Lord God.
You and I will never meet on this road. I believe Christ is the end of Jews and gentiles. You believe He is the means for gentiles to become an odd half-breed of Jew/gentile. There are plenty of Judaized Christians on TOL. It is far from what most of us believe. It offers bondage and Paul was insistent that gentiles not become bewitched (by those very esteemed Christian Jews). Their Judaizing was for them alone. Become an authoritarian Judaized Christian, then. It isn't something that those free in Christ need from you and we'll be vocal about the rejection. It isn't Christ we are rejecting, it is you and Judaized bonds Christ set us free from. In a sense, I empathize, we are to be in bondage to Christ, but I believe it looks a LOT less like you think it does. They are bonds of love where we are no longer called slaves/servants, but friends of the Living God. I pray you find that kind of release. You are in bondage to a prideful haughty religion and gentiles are warned from it. If Christ sets one free, he/she is free indeed. The Puritan mindset would preclude enjoying anything on this earth for fear that it is all carnal rather than to be received from the Maker of Heaven and Earth in thankfulness. Our job is to separate the carnal from the spiritual concerning the flesh. I still hug and kiss my family. That's flesh, but it doesn't mean 'carnal.' You, imho, are out of balance and legalistic, not for love's sake, but for mindless observance. I remind that ALL the law and prophets concern love alone.
You are awkwardly mixing metaphors of scripture truth and then in an authoritarian fashion, are demanding your interpretation be accepted as gospel. I don't see your prowess as all that impressive NOR am I desirous of that lofty position myself. I simply want people to read and understand the scriptures and interpret them correctly, as I do you as well. It is, in fact, not a sin, to eat pork. It is VERY clear that what enters a man does not make him unclean. Mark 7:15 You are preaching the EXACT opposite of that verse (and this precise message is replete and insistent in several more important passages and instructions).
You confuse carnal with 'flesh' and there are heresies associated with this kind of high-minded denial of living in the flesh. The logical end to your thinking would to be to commit suicide to escape the carnal and flesh. This is NOT what God is calling you to do, but rather to discern what is good from what is bad. The world is created and sustained by Christ Jesus our Lord God Colossians 1:16-20 We are supposed to be understanding what is part of His intended design, and what is actually carnal. Adam and Eve weren't made 'carnal.' The earth was subjected to futility in that we might be set free, with it, from slavery in corruption Romans 8:19-21
:nono: "Types" do not mean free interpretation. You can chuckle your way through faulty scripture study, but it isn't amusing to me. You CANNOT free-associate and call it gospel. ANY correlation between scriptures must be accessible AND recognizable to all, or it IS private interpretation, and you become lord, master, dictate, of that proclamation.
If my post does not stand up to scrutiny of any believer, who I desire to check facts and scripture, it isn't worth the electricity that it rides on. Truth must be verifiable to be reliable and it must stand on its own.
Thumping my chest or calling you carnal doesn't get-er-done. THAT would be fleshly and carnal, in actuality. Every cult and cult-minded jumps incredibly quickly to that horrid and 'carnal' carnal accusation. Imho, it is most often likely a carnal accusation, from carnal interest and self-promotion, itself. Anytime I infer myself between man and another'
s Creator, I'm thinking it is me, in the flesh, getting in the way. I desire to see men interacting with their God, and me standing on the side, not in the way. I nor you can ever be the mediator between man and Christ, the ONLY mediator. Don't over-glorify your scriptural prowess as if to ensure your indispensability. The scriptures attest clearly to themselves. We disagree and must learn to recognize what is in self, that argues with another. I will again, point out the factors that cause our chasm. I need to walk much more humbly before my God.
Dear Lon,
How about I share some of my experiences with you. When I was 18, the Lord visited me, and so did three angels {each a week apart}. You can't believe me? It doesn't matter. The Holy Ghost also visited me then. The Lord and each angel taught me a lesson. So did the Holy Ghost. They were excellent in their care of me. I was eating pork all my life, so they didn't care. They treated me as one of Them regardless. No problem at all that I had not been baptized in water yet. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit three times, before I was baptized in water. Every bit of it was fine with God. He loves me and Jesus loves me, and other people love me, pork or not. So I would tell you to do what you want.
Now, I only quit eating pork in October. I miss the bacon and ham, and split pea soup. I've got to tell you, it was brought to my attention that in the Bible, God mentions they were stewing swine broth on their stoves, or words to that effect, and it was not right with Him. Seeing and knowing His disgust with that made me choose not to eat pork any longer. You find God, you find Christ, and the first two commandments are the most important, but Jesus said the other commandments will culminate with you keeping all of the commandments of God, or words to that effect. I don't want to vex you with 'don't eat pork.' If you want to eat it, fine. If you want to fast for God, fine. If you want to not eat pork for God's sake, fine. I read how disgusted God was about the unclean broth on their stoves that made me change. But God did love me greatly, despite that I was eating pork all of my life, even after I was 18-59 years old. I chose not to eat pork because of how it made God feel.
Now, it may be God's Will that we CAN eat pork these days, because we have the USDA to make sure that we don't get tapeworm. Our ham and pork is safe, as compared to Mexico's, etc. I would eat pork and may continue as an afterthought to this post I am writing to you. It's probably okay to eat pork. But once Armageddon comes, and there is no USDA any longer, I would suggest that no one eats pork, or they will get tapeworm. They might die if that happens.
So that's my summary. God loved me tons despite I was eating ham, bacon, and bean or split pea soup. I took on not eating pork out of reverence to God. But then I thought, it's probably okay now because it is tested and okay. So I am going to keep eating bacon and ham soup. I think God will love me just the same. Christ and the USDA frees me from worrying about it.
Much Love Coming Your Way!!
Michael
:angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :rapture:
Hilarious, you prove once again that you are everything you accuse others of being. Right from the start you call me a "blowhard" and then proceed to post three times as much as what I posted to you. And not only that but you are the Pharisee because I do not eat meat except for fish with scales that swarm in schools because they are not living souls, (as explained already in this thread which you clearly have not read) and because fish is likewise the only "meat" which Yeshua might have ever eaten, (Luke 24:42-43) and because fish is the only meat Yeshua ever sanctioned and blessed for anyone else to eat, (the feeding of the four thousand and the five thousand). You seek to justify yourself before men, just as your Pharisee fathers did in Luke 16:15, and because of it you have conveniently ignored my reasons already given in this thread for why I believe the way I do, which is the commandment from the Ten Words, "You shall not murder-kill", (PERIOD) which is physical and, unless you can prove it only means killing people, then it continues to mean any living creature with a soul. If you had understood, believed, and upheld this commandment from the Ten then you might have understood why beyond that physical law is the supernal understanding. In addition you have also ignored the warning and injunction from Acts 15:20-29 which clearly enjoins you to completely ABSTAIN from blood of any kind in any amount. This includes the blood on your hands for killing and eating the flesh of other living creatures when you lift up your hands in prayer according to the Prophet Isaiah, which also has already been quoted in this thread, which you have also ignored:
Isaiah 1:9-15 KJV
9. Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah [Romans 9:29].
10. Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Do you not hear Paul when he tells you in Romans 7:14 that the Torah is SPIRITUAL? If you kill another living creature or cause the death of another living creature by purchasing meat from a butcher; and then drain its blood or have its blood drained for you by a butcher; just so you can cook and eat its flesh to fill your belly: then you have innocent blood on your hands every time you lift them up to God. This is not me "thumping my chest" but rather standing against your affront to living creatures who cannot speak for themselves and your affront to the truth and commandments of God. In fact you are worse off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Jews because you know that you have no more need to make sacrifices and yet continue to murder-death-kill just to fill your belly of the flesh man who rules in your house. :crackup:
Lon
Well-known member
I suspected your fast and loose use of terminology as well as with scripture. They go hand-in-hand it is generally true that those who mishandle God's Word mishandle English as well. There are language rules and if you do not follow them, you get a whole lot wrong. Because of that, not many of us should teach or try to teach, let alone feed ourselves His word. The best thing a person wanting to learn God's word can often do, is go back to school and get A's in English class where they failed before. It greatly handicaps ones ability. Blowhard means asserting what you have no business asserting, not how much air you are using *(or energy typing). "Hilarious" quickly becomes "ignorantly sad" to the discerning.
You are building wives tales upon wives tales, gossiping about your 'feelings' you have when wrongly reading God's word without discernment. I never called you a Pharisee, but said you were being pharisaical :doh:
:doh: Abel offered a better 'sacrifice' than Cain! :doh: I REALLY wish you amatures would leave off prognosticating what you obviously don't know. Eating fish, is 'killing fish.' You really don't know your bible or English well enough, at this point, to be trying to teach anybody anything. You are arrogant and prideful to even attempt it and need a lot of hard introspection for the 'reason' you insist on doing so. I don't care 'why' you are trying to 'justify' it, but you are very wrong and wrong concerning me. I am here trying to serve God and men, not trying to eschew my 'knowledgable prowess' or whatever. If it is of no service, I'm an unprofitable servant and will endeavor to become better.
I'm not even sure of your 'carnal' understanding so certainly don't see much to your 'higher' understanding. God doesn't divinely 'zap' you with knowledge. The carnal mind doesn't understand because he/she isn't interested in bein God's creation and discerning what He'd teach. You are WAY off the beaten path of understanding and using 'carnal' canards as a beat-down to any contender, which is in my mind, fairly carnal and fleshly. How many times have you prayed while trying to adress me here? What is your purpose?
The good news? Everyone else now, can see you are incredibly off-base and not grounded in English, let alone scripture. There are a lot of :doh: moments discussing this matter with you. I really wish you'd humble yourself instead of spouting off in what is clearly ignorance.
I'm not at all sure 'you' understand what is written here. You are like a guy who looks at the pictures and goes off and builds the cabinet without reading a thing. Scripture isn't cabinetry and must be understood well within its content and context to rightly discern its points. We are supposed to 'study' AND 'to shew (SHOW) ourselves approved!'
Your ignorance is complete AND you are simply proffering your own pet peeves superimposed over scripture, REGARDLESS of what they actually do and do not say.
Yes. It is.
Rather it is your tree-hugging ways, superimoposed upon scripture, to post your new-age animal-feel-good message over and ESPECIALLY against the clear teachings of scriptures, for your own vegan agenda.
As I said, I'm glad you spoke up because it pinpoints your fanaticism and heresies and earmarks you as an uneducated authority unto yourself without recognizing or appreciating the, in fact, actual words of Our Lord God and Savior. You love being a vegan in authoritative spotlight more than you love being Christ's at this point OR you are woefully ignorant and should sit down in church an avoid trying to teach while you rightly learn and discern God's written word.
I don't mean this to be the dress-down this comes across as, but I do mean to ask prideful men to sit down and learn for a change. You are wrong, flat wrong, and it needs to be both pointed out and shown as the bold ignorant/arrogant spectacle that it is. I am an unprofitable servant endeavoring to bring Him and His something of value and worth.
Wow, look at all this venom. I'm not starving or dying enough to eat from your poison or drink from the well of your venom. No wonder blowhards never quote scripture for the things they demand that everyone else simply accept on their word. Funny how you go all the way back to Abel thinking to be making your point and yet ignore the Prophets and Writings, such as Psalms, and kings of Israel such as David, who explain such things. You have no clue what you are saying or doing and you certainly should not be telling anyone else they have no right to speak or write about what they believe to be true from the scripture. You think Abel slaughtered some of his firstborn sheep and a blood thirsty God was pleased with that because you yourself love to eat the slain flesh of other living creatures. Bad news for you killer: the real God does not think like you do. The fish is very simply common sense. God does not make one living soul simply to be "food" for another living soul. The lesser fish that swarm in schools are not living souls because they are made as "food" for the greater sea life such as whales, dolphins, porpoises, and basically the larger creatures with "skins" as opposed to scales. If you say that God made the smaller fish to be living souls then you attribute to God the making of one lesser kind of living soul simply to be "food" for a greater and more powerful kind of living soul. Your God may indeed be that way but mine is not. Your theology is therefore unnatural and an affront to the original creation from the start. This you do because you think that God thinks just as you do and made every living creature just for you to hunt down, cage up, fatten up, slaughter by slitting their throats, ("humanely" of course) drain their blood, and then cook and eat their flesh. Yep, blood on your hands every time you spread them toward the heavens. As for me the Father has made a covenant between me, and the beasts of the field, and fowls of the heavens, and that was already explained with the passage which was already quoted in this thread too, (Hosea 2:18-23 which Paul also quotes from). If you walk according to the mind and eyes of the flesh it cannot be hidden because the stench comes not only out from your pores but your doctrine. :chuckle:
Lon
Well-known member
lain::doh: I hope you are just ignorant rather than making up purposeful lies. You SHOULD know this is a lie, whether you are inept or not.
In your next breath:More chest thumping. You are a child. Of 'course' I started in Genesis! :doh:
Sorry, I've taught school. I can read and discern a bad paper as well as a good one. I DO, in fact, know what grades they have in English.
There is blood in fish, and you do have to kill them, genius.
:dizzy:
Er, no. :nono: No 'personal' gods. He is either God or He is not God and NEITHER you nor I get to dictate to Him how He must be. He is God. We are creatures owned by that God. He dictates to us, not we Him.
It is an affront to 'just you.' Don't 'spiritualize' your whims. There is a God, and you are not Him, chest-thumper.
You really have no clue. This thread went from pork to "any meat" (except fish :dizzy
not being acceptable. The Noahic covenant gave Noah anything as food and was specific about it. You 'not liking that?' No question, but it is you impressing God with your desires instead of listening to His. Do as you like, but don't claim you know what God is saying because you don't listen. He said/she said. I don't play this inane game. It is, honestly brain-dead "first stupid defense thing I think of that 'looks' spiritual to me" and 'surely must make the other guy look like a pagan' sentiment. In just 'saying' that, it is almost throwing the gauntlet back at your carnal feet, but again, you have the uneducated audacity to throw that ignorant gauntlet in the first place, and readily seen as such. I have really said enough AND you have said enough that God and others can discern between you and I. There really is no other need for exchange here between the two of us. Our works prove themselves and I don't have to drag this out any longer. I pray you'll get a better grip on your pride and arrogance.
:doh: I hope you are just ignorant rather than making up purposeful lies. You SHOULD know this is a lie, whether you are inept or not.
More chest thumping. You are a child. Of 'course' I started in Genesis! :doh:
Sorry, I've taught school. I can read and discern a bad paper as well as a good one. I DO, in fact, know what grades they have in English.
There is blood in fish, and you do have to kill them, genius.
:dizzy:
Er, no. :nono: No 'personal' gods. He is either God or He is not God and NEITHER you nor I get to dictate to Him how He must be. He is God. We are creatures owned by that God. He dictates to us, not we Him.
It is an affront to 'just you.' Don't 'spiritualize' your whims. There is a God, and you are not Him, chest-thumper.
You really have no clue. This thread went from pork to "any meat" (except fish :dizzy
He said/she said. I don't play this inane game. It is, honestly brain-dead "first stupid defense thing I think of that 'looks' spiritual to me" and 'surely must make the other guy look like a pagan' sentiment. In just 'saying' that, it is almost throwing the gauntlet back at your carnal feet, but again, you have the uneducated audacity to throw that ignorant gauntlet in the first place, and readily seen as such. I have really said enough AND you have said enough that God and others can discern between you and I. There really is no other need for exchange here between the two of us. Our works prove themselves and I don't have to drag this out any longer. I pray you'll get a better grip on your pride and arrogance.
No, it was not a lie, and you have just now proven what I said once again because, once again in this post, you have no scripture to support anything you have said. Do you not realize that you are arguing against all of the SCRIPTURE which I have already posted in this thread since my first post? Just because I feel no need to repost it all again for you does not mean it is not there to be found. Your argument is not with me but you seem to think foolishly that it is. You are derailing this thread now so I see no more need to even respond to your venomous attacks.
Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover must be killed. And He sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat." (Luke 22:7-8 NKJV)
The passover was killed and eaten.
We have even been over this too. Where is it written that Yeshua and his disciples ate the flesh of lamb or goat? It is not found anywhere. Yeshua, like Melki-Tzedek, brought forth BREAD and WINE. There is no literal flesh of lamb or goat at the Seder of the Master because they too are living souls.
iouae
Well-known member
Luke 22
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
This was the conventional Passover of lamb. The new symbols of bread and wine were yet to be introduced.
Lon
Well-known member
I hope you are just ignorant rather than making up purposeful lies... whether you are inept or not.
:doh:
:think:
what goes in your mouth can't hurt you
but
what comes out can
but
what comes out can
Just because you highlighted the word "killed" in purple and large font does not change the meaning of the passage, (and someone else here is telling me that I do not understand English?). It does not say anything about Yeshua and his disciples sitting down to eat the flesh of lamb, sheep, or goat. Just because it was the day when the Passover was to be slain does not mean that is how they observed that day, or evening, or night. That is merely backdrop information to explain WHAT DAY it was in that passage. Also when you say, "The new symbols of bread and wine were yet to be introduced", you also do not know what you are talking about and this even after it was just stated that Melki-Tzedek introduces the BREAD and the WINE:
Genesis 14:18
18. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the Most High God.
In addition your version of the Passover in that year is disqualified because the High Priest himself, Caiaphas, disqualified himself:
Leviticus 21:10
10. And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes:
Matthew 26:64-65
64. Yeshua said unto him, You have said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall the Son of man be seen sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.
You do not even appear to have the correct day.
Are you saying Jesus did not keep the Passover prior to him becoming the Passover?
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Hebrews 10:8-9 NKJV)
...and without shedding of blood there is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22 NKJV)
...and without shedding of blood there is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22 NKJV)
Jesus' blood negated the need for animal blood and he instituted the symbols of broken unleavened bread representing his body and wine to symbolize his new testament.
iouae
Well-known member
Entirely correct. Nice proofs.
All the Passover sacrifices were the type of the sacrifice of the Lamb.
How silly it sounds for The Lamb not to have kept His own commanded type. And all the animal sacrifices too were in vain, including the one on Atonement.
JonahofAkron
New member
That's ridiculous. It makes Him doubleminded and cruel to put in front of us something that we can not do. I don't believe that He would have said in Deuteronomy 30 that it would be possible to do the things that He has set up if He didn't believe that.
I do see a difference in the two, but only so far as Gentiles and Jews joining the Body of Messiah is concerned; that is the context of each discussion. I would also point out that Galatians is a discussion on justification and salvation.
It's telling that he didn't eat. It means that he understood the true message of the vision. Again, you are making someone a liar by having them do something that would be against their 'freedom' in order to win people. If that isn't the lifestyle that they're supposed to have, why do you believe it is necessary for them to lie to the people they are trying to evangelize?
I will agree that it is a deeper concern, but it is one that goes beyond bondage and freedom-there is the concern of following what God's instructions are. I am seeing a pattern of not knowing what a Judaizer is: someone who forces the Law and circumcision on someone for the sake of salvation. My claim is and has always been that it is not for necessary for salvation.
Agreed-He freed us from sin and it's ill-effects. He did not free us from what defines sin-1 John 3:4. It does not get simpler.
That is, again, not the claim I am making. I have never said that and hope to never say it. I would also point out that the train of thought I am using has been counter to traditional Christian thought for nearly 18 centuries....so, I don't know why you are making that complaint against me.
And to be clear, the Messiah's statement about the Law and Prophets hanging on those 2 greatest commands is not a supplanting of the instructions in Torah; it is an attempt to again make clear what some of the Pharisees and Sadducees had obfuscated.
I apologize for being sarcastic and rude in that comment. I have edited the aforementioned post. Again, rebuke accepted.
JonahofAkron
New member
I did, but I believe that to be the most important facet of this conversation, even though I know that you do share the opinion of the Messiah being Yeshua-it is, in point of fact, the very basis of the conversation. No offense intended.