Jose Fly
New member
I'm not sure that's really relevant to the thread, and to be honest, I don't have the energy right now to debate tax policies. I hope you understand.
Socioeconomic Theories
- Thread starter WizardofOz
- Start date
I would, if he didn't. Our taxes are too low.
Not everyone. The rich are getting a really good deal on their taxes. The poor and most of the middle class already pay plenty.
genuineoriginal
New member
If you believe your taxes are too low, then send in more money.
My taxes are much too high, much higher than the three-pence-per-pound rate that was in effect in the British colonies of the 1700s.
Oh, I see.
You are claiming that you are paying enough, but that the other guy must pay more.
I'll pay my taxes, you pay yours. We should all be paying a little bit more, if we're working. The government cannot be financed on charity.
No, I think I should be taxed more too. I make plenty of money. Not sure why you assume I'm on the poor end of things.
genuineoriginal
New member
That is a decision best left to the citizens of Detroit.
genuineoriginal
New member
It isn't. The government is financed by debt that it takes on without our consent.
When the government wants more money, it takes on more debt.
Our taxes do not pay for our government, they allow the government more control over us.
No...but you suggested that it could be.
Debt and taxes. And if you don't like it, vote. And if that doesn't work, run for office.
Nonsense.
WizardofOz
New member
That's really avoiding the question. In the community that you live in, how would impoverished children be educated without public schools?
pullik skools in detroit aren't doing a very good job of educating impoverished kids as it is
:think:
back in colonial times, a young lad who wanted to make his way took to the sea
Doom
New member
Always appreciated this explanation...
Mary is the proprietor of a bar in Dublin . She realises that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronise her bar. To solve this problem, she comes up with new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later. She keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans). Word gets around about Mary’s “drink now, pay later” marketing strategy and, as a result, increasing numbers of customers flood into Mary’s bar. Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in Dublin. By providing her customers’ freedom from immediate payment demands, Mary gets no resistance when, at regular intervals, she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages. Consequently, Mary’s gross sales volume increases massively.
A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognises that these customer debts constitute valuable future assets and increases Mary’s borrowing limit. He sees no reason for any undue concern, since he has the debts of unemployed alcoholics as collateral.
At the bank’s corporate headquarters, expert traders figure a way to make huge commissions, and transform these customer loans into DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS. These securities are then bundled and traded on international security markets. Naive investors don’t really understand that the securities being sold to them as AAA secured bonds are really the debts of unemployed alcoholics. Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb, and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation’s leading brokerage houses.
One day, even though the bond prices are still climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Mary’s bar. He so informs Mary. Mary then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons, but being unemployed alcoholics they cannot pay back their drinking debts. Since, Mary cannot fulfil her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy. The bar closes and the eleven employees lose their jobs.
Overnight, DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS drop in price by 90%. The collapsed bond asset value destroys the banks liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans, thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community. The suppliers of Mary’s bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms’ pension funds in the various BOND securities. They find they are now faced with having to write off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds. Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations, her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers.
Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and bailed out by a multi-billion euro no-strings attached cash infusion from their cronies in Government. The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed, middle-class, non-drinkers who have never been in Mary’s bar.
Mary is the proprietor of a bar in Dublin . She realises that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronise her bar. To solve this problem, she comes up with new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later. She keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans). Word gets around about Mary’s “drink now, pay later” marketing strategy and, as a result, increasing numbers of customers flood into Mary’s bar. Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in Dublin. By providing her customers’ freedom from immediate payment demands, Mary gets no resistance when, at regular intervals, she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages. Consequently, Mary’s gross sales volume increases massively.
A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognises that these customer debts constitute valuable future assets and increases Mary’s borrowing limit. He sees no reason for any undue concern, since he has the debts of unemployed alcoholics as collateral.
At the bank’s corporate headquarters, expert traders figure a way to make huge commissions, and transform these customer loans into DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS. These securities are then bundled and traded on international security markets. Naive investors don’t really understand that the securities being sold to them as AAA secured bonds are really the debts of unemployed alcoholics. Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb, and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation’s leading brokerage houses.
One day, even though the bond prices are still climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Mary’s bar. He so informs Mary. Mary then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons, but being unemployed alcoholics they cannot pay back their drinking debts. Since, Mary cannot fulfil her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy. The bar closes and the eleven employees lose their jobs.
Overnight, DRINKBONDS, ALKIBONDS and PUKEBONDS drop in price by 90%. The collapsed bond asset value destroys the banks liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans, thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community. The suppliers of Mary’s bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms’ pension funds in the various BOND securities. They find they are now faced with having to write off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds. Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations, her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers.
Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and bailed out by a multi-billion euro no-strings attached cash infusion from their cronies in Government. The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed, middle-class, non-drinkers who have never been in Mary’s bar.
genuineoriginal
New member
I see you have brought the responsibility of public funded and controlled education down from the Federal level to the city/town/community level.
That shows that you are able to understand who is responsible for educating the young.
In the past, impoverished children were educated by their parents in order to take on the same duties as the parents. This worked well in an agricultural society.
In the start of the industrial age, impoverished children didn't have to worry about education because they would work in the factories with their parents, providing additional income and not being a burden on their parents and their society. Some children were apprenticed to others so they could learn a trade.
In the modern age, it is expected for children to be burdens on their parents and community until the age of 18 for impoverished families and the age of 26 for mildly-impoverished families (middle class).
WizardofOz
New member
Agreed but what's the alternative? :idunno:
Ah, colonial times....the good ole days *staring wistfully at the sea*
WizardofOz
New member
:liberals:
Always have...
Let's get back to reality. It's 2015...Most households require 2 working parents. We don't live in an agricultural society and many parents are simply unfit or otherwise unable to properly educate their children to the level that is required in order to be competitive or even get by today.
How would a mother who is doesn't have the education to move beyond a McJob herself educate her children to rise to a higher position once they hit the job force?
Let's get back to reality...it's 2015. We're not at the start of the industrial age.
Still an option today. How should they be educated up until they are old enough to start an apprenticeship?
It's expected? Let's get back to the original question. We're talking about millions of children and how they should be educated. Without public education, will the education level of our youth improve or take a step back?
reinstitutionalize a form of slavery for those who can't or won't succeed? :idunno:
i wonder how far we'd get by mandating that mothers stay home with their children until they're of school age
just think - they could cook and clean, they wouldn't need a second car in the household, they wouldn't spend outrageous amounts of money on restaurants and take-out, they wouldn't have the expense of a housecleaner, or daycare, or psychiatrists for their children when they're older...
PureX
Well-known member
Education should be paid for at the local, state, and federal level because education has a direct effect on the quality of business, society, and government at all these levels.
Transportation and communication systems should be paid for at the local, state, and federal levels because they directly effect the functionality of business, society, and government at all these levels.
A public health care system should be paid for at the local, state, and federal levels because it directly effects the quality of life of everyone at every level of the societal system.
These systems are expensive, but they pay off directly in business productivity, government functionality, and overall quality of life for the entire society. And the only arguments against this are based on the ignorance, selfishness, and short-sightedness of individuals who do not understand that their own well-being is directly tied to the collective well-being of their economic, political, and social environment. And as each decade passes this becomes more and more the case, not less.
If we really want to foster more freedom and independence in this very inter-dependent modern society that we live in, we are going to have to do it from the inside, out, and with collective deliberation and participation. (I would be completely in favor of this, by the way). Tearing society apart in pursuit of some idiotic fantasy of 'yesteryear' is not going to result in anything but a disastrous collapse of business, government and society. And no one in their right mind wants to go there.
Transportation and communication systems should be paid for at the local, state, and federal levels because they directly effect the functionality of business, society, and government at all these levels.
A public health care system should be paid for at the local, state, and federal levels because it directly effects the quality of life of everyone at every level of the societal system.
These systems are expensive, but they pay off directly in business productivity, government functionality, and overall quality of life for the entire society. And the only arguments against this are based on the ignorance, selfishness, and short-sightedness of individuals who do not understand that their own well-being is directly tied to the collective well-being of their economic, political, and social environment. And as each decade passes this becomes more and more the case, not less.
If we really want to foster more freedom and independence in this very inter-dependent modern society that we live in, we are going to have to do it from the inside, out, and with collective deliberation and participation. (I would be completely in favor of this, by the way). Tearing society apart in pursuit of some idiotic fantasy of 'yesteryear' is not going to result in anything but a disastrous collapse of business, government and society. And no one in their right mind wants to go there.
genuineoriginal
New member
You are saying that most households are too poor to pay for the education of their own children.
You are also saying that most parents are too uneducated to be able to educate their own children.
Why shouldn't apprenticeships start with grade school age children?
They are in the prime age range for the education to be the most beneficial.
I am thinking that indentured servitude would work out well for helping out the parents that are too poor and too uneducated to be able to raise their children.
genuineoriginal
New member
The current system is already a disaster.
No one in their right mind wants to stay here.
PureX
Well-known member
We are very, very far from a real disaster. A real disaster is when the whole system collapses and the most ruthless criminals rise to power by brute force, and take whatever they want from whomever they want.
I agree that our nation is failing, and that there are criminals running things. But it's still very, very far from being a total collapse. And it's still one of the safest and most prosperous nations on the planet to live in. So please check your insane hyperbole. And please stop advocating for a total collapse, because the reality of a total collapse will mean the ruthless rape, robbery, and murder of millions of human beings, very likely including you and everyone you love.
All we need to do is stop thinking and behaving like ignorant spoiled children, and start taking responsibility for what we have allowed to happen to our businesses and government. As yet, no violence is required. With just some real common sense and responsibility we can easily change the course of the nation and begin moving toward the kind of systems that increase freedom and independence instead of decreasing them, as we are doing, today.
All this toxic extremism is not helping. It just fuels the ignorance and the violence, and makes real solutions harder to achieve.
WizardofOz
New member
How many could afford to pay for private school? If there were no public school and they couldn't home school and they cannot afford private school, how will their children be educated?
See the disconnect between what I actually said and what you're saying that I said? Many not most.
That's going to work for all children? Is there any exchange of money between master and apprentice or his/her family?
Sounds feasible
lain: