Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?

[c.moore]

You mean the staff to snake trick? It's an old staple of sleight of hand in that part of the world. I've seen it done in person myself.

but by what power was it done?

Some other religions pre-date the Bible, Judaism or Christianity, c.moore. They're hardly "copying" when they've been teaching something for hundreds or even thousands of years before a particular part of the Bible was written...

So what was before God other religions??
What was before the oral teachings of God or ADam?

Perhaps the Bible is merely making an observation about human society in general, not stating a unique principle.

Do you believe the bible is a living bible?

We live from the bible and not the bible live from us, it is God`s Divine Words, oral and written.

Saying that something was done for centuries before it was included in the Bible hardly makes the Bible a work of divine revelation, it could also mean that the writers were keep observers of the human condition and recording the folk wisdom of their day...

2Tm:3:14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Tm:3:15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tm:3:17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by c.moore

but by what power was it done?

Power? The power of suggestion. As I mentioned in my previous post, what I saw was sleight of hand - a staged performance.

Moses had grown up around the court of Pharaoh, he'd likely seen such things many times himself. Historical records note that Egypt was renowned for its "magic", in the sense that we describe stage illusionists as "magic".

So what was before God other religions??What was before the oral teachings of God or ADam?

As nearly as we can tell from history, gods came from men, not the other way round. Humankind created its gods to meet its own needs.

Do you believe the bible is a living bible?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that statement. Would you explain it, please?

We live from the bible and not the bible live from us, it is God`s Divine Words, oral and written.

Without human writers, there would be no Bible. It was not written by YHWH. It was written by men. In my experience and study of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and other world religions, your Bible bears no more marks of divine authorship or content than does the scriptures of any other world religion.

 

[c.moore]

Without human writers, there would be no Bible. It was not written by YHWH. It was written by men. In my experience and study of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and other world religions, your Bible bears no more marks of divine authorship or content than does the scriptures of any other world religion.

Co:1:19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co:1:20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co:1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co:1:22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co:1:23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co:1:24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co:1:25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co:1:26: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co:1:27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co:1:28: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co:1:29: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co:1:30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co:1:31: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Zakath

Moses had grown up around the court of Pharaoh, he'd likely seen such things many times himself. Historical records note that Egypt was renowned for its "magic", in the sense that we describe stage illusionists as "magic".

As nearly as we can tell from history, gods came from men, not the other way round. Humankind created its gods to meet its own needs.

Without human writers, there would be no Bible. It was not written by YHWH. It was written by men. In my experience and study of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and other world religions, your Bible bears no more marks of divine authorship or content than does the scriptures of any other world religion.

If I write a letter with a pen is it I or the pen that writes it? The answer is both. The inspired judeo-christian scriptures are like this.

Man did indeed create his gods as you say. However the God and Father of Jesus created the World, which explains why you exist.

It wasn't that the rod became a snake that made this act unique, as you say. It was that Aaron's rod swallowed up the sorcerers rods. This showed egypt the God of moses is above man's illusionary gods.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Zakath
your Bible bears no more marks of divine authorship or content than does the scriptures of any other world religion.

What are the marks of divine authorship or content?

 

[harryhebert]

The Laws of the Titha

The Laws of the Titha

The Laws of the Tithe

According to the Old Testament, priests were provided for by receiving as their ‘due’ and their ‘crop’ the following:
1. ‘Heave’ offerings and ‘wave’ offerings. A ‘heave offering’ was meat or food ritually used but not totally consumed. It was cooked meat offered at the time of consecrating a priest and was a peace offering. This was not the tithe.
2. every meat ‘offering’
3. every oblation or ‘offering’ of the people
4. every ‘sin’ offering
5. every ‘trespass’ offering
6. every ‘first fruit’ offering
7. participation in the tithers feast (see below)
Sources: Numbers 18:19-24, Exodus 29:26-28, Leviticus 7:11-15, Numbers 18:8, Deuteronomy 26:1-11
Tithing followed a 3-year cycle. It represented not a ‘first fruits’ offering, but rather a tithe of the end of the year increase. The tithe was handled in the following manner:

First and Second year tithe
The tither (the person doing the tithing) would bring the increase to a place specifically designated and he himself and his family would eat and enjoy the tithe. It was a feast looked forward to because a man and his family would have at least one good feast a year and include the Levite in it as a guest. It was the Lord’s treating the tither and the Levite to a feast of rejoicing. (Deuteronomy 14:22-27)

Third year tithe
The tither did not have a family tithe feast this year for himself and his household. He saved the entire years tithe within his own gates. At the end of the year, he had an obligation to distribute the entire tithe to Levites, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow. They were to eat and be satisfied. The Levite had no set allotment in this, but was to be among those included in the distribution.
(Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 26:12-15)

At one time, the Hebrew people elected to return to the Lord and renew the olden ways of priestly worship. This is recorded in 2nd Chronicles, chapter 31. The people were so jubilant that they brought more offerings and gifts than could be used, so Hezekiah commanded the construction of storage chambers in a place called ‘the house of the Lord’. This became known as the storehouse and the custom of bringing the tithes ‘to the storehouse’ thus had its beginning. This custom was later used to usurp the Law of the Tithe as originally given. The widow, the stranger, and the orphan got left out in the cold. Make no mistake about it; the detailed instructions pertaining to the Law of the Tithe are part of the systems of the laws of Moses. The Christian is under the law of Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The tithe was to result in widows, orphans, and strangers being provided for along with the tither and priest enjoying feasts of rejoicing. Surely consistency should require that money collected in the name of the law should be distributed according to the provisions of the law.

“Pure religion and undefiled before God the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to keep himself unspotted from the world.� (James 1:27)

The only ‘law’ we are under is the one found below:

“Bear ye one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.� (Galatians 6:2)

We, as Christians, are to do the ‘will of the Father’ in all matters. Anyone who so endorses the missions and practices of his church that he cheerfuly gives it 10% or more of his earnings is free to do so if he is confident that for him it is the ‘will of his heavenly Father’. He will not, however, be keeping the law of the tithe as laid down by Moses,…unless his is a most unusual church.

regards,
harry

 

[c.moore]

harryhebert


Why is it so popular and taught so strongly in the pentecostal churches and tv programs to pay tithes???

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by STONE

What are the marks of divine authorship or content?

What are claimed as marks of divine authorship include:

• 1. Stated claim of divine authorship
  
  2. Revelation of knowledge about the universe normally unavailable to humans
  
  3. Internal consistency between different writers

You could also use McDowell's list:

1. It would be widely distributed so man could attain it easily
2. It would be preserved through time without corruption
3. It would be completely accurate historically.
4. It would not be prone to scientific error or false beliefs held by the people of that time.
5. It would present true, unified answers to the difficult questions of life.

There are a number of competing systems for testing the validity of claims of divine origin of a text.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by c.moore

harryhebert


Why is it so popular and taught so strongly in the pentecostal churches and tv programs to pay tithes???

Having been a pentecostal pastor I can hazard an answer to that...

• 1. Pentecostals are generally less well-educated than members of other denominations.
  
  2. Pentecostals are more easily manipulated because one of the major bases for their religious practice is self-induced ecstatic state which makes them very suggestible.
  
  3. Pentecostals tend to avoid denominational unions that could provide checks and balances on unscrupulous manipulation by local pastors.
  
  4. Pentecostal churches tend to have rigidly controlled strongly centralized leadership by very charismatic (in the psychological sense, not the spirital sense) leaders.

Having been on the set of pentecostal/charismatic television programs several times, I can say that for TV programs...

• 
  1. Television ministries cost a lot of money.
  
  2. Convincing your viewers that they will be particularly blessed if they contribute to your program or ministry benefits you at the expense of the local church.
  
  3. Television production lends itself to edit out the boring parts of human life and concentrate on the exciting, interesting parts to titillate the audience and encourage their financial support.
  
  4. Many viewers do not realize that they are watching a pre-recorded program. They respond as if what they are watching is actually taking place at the time. Most of what they are seeing has been recorded days, weeks, or even months before. The "prayers" and alleged "words of knowledge" are very general and pre-recorded, relying on statistical odds over a large audience that someone will find and personalize something from the genral statements. This is called the Forher Effect in psychology. It's how the horoscopes in the newspaper work.

Hope that explains things a bit.

 

[c.moore]

Do you think tithes is a myth Zakath to just get people money??

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by c.moore

Do you think tithes is a myth Zakath to just get people money??

That depends what you mean by "myth", c.moore... there are several, very different meanings for the word.

If you mean do I believe that preachers and ministry leaders use teaching about Christians needing to tithe so they can get them to give more money than they normally would, then yes, I believe that.

I've been to too many church growth seminars run by pastors for pastors and heard exactly that teaching promoted. :down:

 

[c.moore]

Maybe it is a new wisdom for us to support the Kingdom of God by tithing and God is telling us how we can bless the church and others through tithes and offerings.

 

[godrulz]

I 'tithed' today out of love and obedience for God, love for His Church, and love for the lost. Systematic, proportionate giving is a Pauline teaching. Jesus did not rescind giving principles. I distinguish between OT and NT giving. I do not give out of compulsion, duty, to be blessed, to be saved, to be seen of men, etc. If you do not like the word tithe (a guideline I use since it is simple math and more than a tip), then substitute giving. The naysayers can stand before God and answer for their priorities, selfishness, and lack of stewardship. Those who sacrificially give were commended by God in the OT (widow oil) and Jesus in the NT (mite).

 

[c.moore]

godrulz

I like how you explaned how people just tip, or chump change God with there finance.
What a shame, and to cheap to give 10% because they have more trust in their money than in God`s 10%.

The excuse to not to pay tithes is to go logical , and reasoning, and get out of being led by the Spirit , and to close their ears to God Spirit, and listen to their own.

 

[godrulz]

I think they think it is a Scriptural argument. In an attempt to avoid abuses, legalisms, wrong motives, etc. they throw the baby out with the bath water. Cheapness, greed, selfishness, etc. might take comfort in keeping 99% and giving God 1% rather than letting go of Mammon to prioritize His kingdom in recognition that He owns 100% of the $ and we are stewards. God is generous to let the OT saints keep 90%. In the NT, let each decide in his heart how they will give cheerfully, systematically, proportionately of income (I Cor.). 10% is a reasonable starting point as a general principle that does not put one back under the law. We do not give to get, or to be saved. We give as an act of love and worship of our providential Creator. The reality is that missions and ministry take $ in our world (Jesus talked about money. The love of $, not $ is the root of evil).

 

[SOTK]

Why is this thread in the "Hall of Fame threads" forum?

 

[Crow]

Beats me. There's only a few posts here, and this was a rather large thread.

 

[Turbo]

I merged the duplicate threads.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

1. Pentecostals are generally less well-educated than members of other denominations.

But godrulz is Pentecostal, and he has lots of them theology books, so don't that make him edukatid?

 

[godrulz]

Theology books are dead men's brains. I have not read most of the 1000s of books I have. They are a reference library. One must pick out the bones to eat the meat.

Knowledge is not wisdom (right application of knowledge).

Knowledge puffs up. Love transforms (heart is more important than head). Humility is essential.

The Bible is the ultimate theology book.

Books are a fallible tool (Paul asked for his books in prison before He died. Jesus no doubt read religious books as a good Jewish Rabbai).

God has illuminated his revelation to men. It is arrogant to think we alone have truth. We should learn from the giants of the faith (recognizing their limitations and errors). Opposing views allow us to think critically and help keep us from error. The truth is often in the middle of extremes.

Heresy is half truth, not total error (one drop of poison in a glass of pure water can be fatal).

Education without character development is mere bits of facts.

The Society for Pentecostal Studies gives credibility to the Pentecostal experience. We must not put experience above the Word. Pentecostal=biblical, not just a cool experience.

We are all students vs 'scholars' for life and should be teachable, including others who have expertise in Hebrew and Greek. We are not experts in everything. A doctor relies on the experience and learning of the ages. How much more for the 'queen of sciences', theology (some things are not black and white). We rely on the Spirit, Word, and prayer, but no biblical tools and anti-intellectualism can lead to error and deception.