Should Children Be Executed If They've...

[glorydaz]

True that!

Romans 3:10 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;​

Gotta read the entire thing.

If God is in the generation of the righteous, then there ARE some righteous.

Psalm 14:1-5 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Gotta read the entire thing.

If God is in the generation of the righteous, then there ARE some righteous.

Yep :thumb:

 

[Town Heretic]

Seeing an execution produces a visceral reaction that leads to a decision to avoid the same fate.

Do you have any citation to empirical studies that supports that? I don't believe murder has much to do with considerations, outside of contract killings of course.

Here's something we can and do know. The number of people who were convicted of murder and then exonerated now stands at 168 since 1973 (link). That's up from 144 in 2014 (link) so we're still getting it wrong, witnesses are recanting, DNA is being used, etc. And that figure represents the ones lucky enough to not be put to death before the discovery.

Now imagine if they'd been executed quickly. And those are the ones we know were innocent. we've put over 1,400 people to death in that time period. How many of them were less fortunate?

It is not unemotional cost/benefit analysis.

I'd agree.

 

[Stripe]

Do you have any citation to empirical studies that supports that?

And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.
Deuteronomy 17:13 NKJV

I don't believe murder has much to do with considerations, outside of contract killings of course.

That's because you don't know what the law is or what it is for.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[CabinetMaker]

Jesus fulfilled the Law in the manner Paul speaks of here:

Romans 13:8 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.​

Jesus said that nothing written in the law and the prophets would pass away until all were fulfilled.
When was this prophecy (from the prophets) fulfilled?

Zechariah 14:16-21 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.​

When Christ died on the cross and ushered in the New Covenant with His blood.

Are Gentiles under the law?

 

[Stripe]

Are Gentiles under the law?

If a man is saved, he is saved by grace, not according to any works.

However, all men are subject to the law.

The law is still in force even though it has nothing to do with salvation.

How can you read the answer so many times and still ask the same question?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you have any citation to empirical studies that supports that?

The Jewish observation of the Sabbath that began with an object lesson shows how effective it is.

Numbers 15:32-36 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.​

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Life without parole is a bad idea.

8 Jarring Facts That Every American Needs to Know About Our Prison System 1. The population of those in prison and jail would be the fourth largest city in America. 2. The prison population has increased 400% since the Reagan presidency. 3. Over 3,000 prisoners are serving life without parole for nonviolent crimes. 4. The incarceration rate of black men in the U.S. dwarfs even that of South Africa under apartheid. 5. The U.S. spends far more imprisoning its citizens than educating them. 6. A massive drop in the crime rate did not slow the pace of mass incarceration. 7. Over two thirds of people who leave prison will return 8. In 17 states, prisons are filled beyond capacity.

​

You seem to like the idea of just imprisoning everyone.
It is better to reduce the crime rate than to increase the conviction rate.

Bit of an apples and oranges comparison since most of that prison overcrowding is not death row inmates. But I would agree the US prison system and the ease that we send non-violent criminals there is a mess.

But even given that Live without parole still best addresses the issue.

 

[CabinetMaker]

If a man is saved, he is saved by grace, not according to any works.

However, all men are subject to the law.

The law is still in force even though it has nothing to do with salvation.

How can you read the answer so many times and still ask the same question?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Because you are wrong. Go spend some time in the New Covenant for a while.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Here's something we can and do know. The number of people who were convicted of murder and then exonerated now stands at 168 since 1973 (link). That's up from 144 in 2014 (link) so we're still getting it wrong, witnesses are recanting, DNA is being used, etc. And that figure represents the ones lucky enough to not be put to death before the discovery.

Now imagine if they'd been executed quickly. And those are the ones we know were innocent. We've put over 1,400 people to death in that time period. How many of them were less fortunate?

I would imagine that had we gone back to executing criminals convicted of capital crimes in '73, those 1400 people you mention would still be alive and would be productive members of society, instead of most likely being convicted of crimes and put 6 feet under.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The Jewish observation of the Sabbath that began with an object lesson shows how effective it is.

Numbers 15:32-36 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.​

So would be mad at Jesus for healing on the Sabath.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

What do we actually see?
Washington DC has the highest murder rate and does not have the death penalty.
West Virginia without the death penalty has a higher murder rate than Virginia with the death penalty.
New Hampshire with the death penalty and Vermont without the death penalty are tied for the lowest murder rate.

Spoiler

Gee thanks for posting graphics that basically support my position. The only real argument you seem to be making is that the death penalty alone does not determine murder rates but that is not something I proposed. None the less your graphic shows that with a few to be expected exceptions the states with a death penalty have higher murder rates.

 

[genuineoriginal]

When Christ died on the cross and ushered in the New Covenant with His blood.

God's Law cannot be changed because it is perfect.
The Medes and Persians tried to copy the way God's Law cannot be changed.

Daniel 6:15 15 Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.​

The book of Esther, especially Esther 8, is provided to show how a New Law (New Covenant) can provide a way to escape the death ordained by an Old Law (Old Covenant).

Are Gentiles under the law?

You are asking the wrong question.

The right question is:
Should Gentiles do the things contained in the law?

Romans 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )​

 

[Stripe]

Because you are wrong.

But you won't explain how or why.

Go spend some time in the New Covenant for a while.

You mean where it talks about works being no part of salvation? That "new covenant"?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[genuineoriginal]

Gee thanks for posting graphics that basically support my position. . . . your graphic shows that with a few to be expected exceptions the states with a death penalty have higher murder rates.

You seem to have a problem understanding that correlation doesn't imply causation.

The only real argument you seem to be making is that the death penalty alone does not determine murder rates but that is not something I proposed.

You have repeatedly proposed the argument that the death penalty is the cause of higher murder rates and suggested that removing the death penalty will lower murder rates.
That is foolishness on your part.
Feel free to never try that argument again.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

You seem to have a problem understanding that correlation doesn't imply causation.

You have repeatedly proposed the argument that the death penalty is the cause of higher murder rates and suggested that removing the death penalty will lower murder rates.
That is foolishness on your part.
Feel free to never try that argument again.

No, I do not argue that the death penalty causes higher murder rates. I point out that it does not appear to lower them where it is applied.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, I do not argue that the death penalty causes higher murder rates. I point out that it does not appear to lower them where it is applied.

You mean that the murder rate does not appear to be lower in states where the death penalty is mis-applied?

 

[JudgeRightly]

No, I do not argue that the death penalty causes higher murder rates. I point out that it does not appear to lower them where it is applied.

You may want to check out the following chart then. The U.S. Supreme Court had reinstituted the death penalty in July of 1976 after having struck down all state death penalty statutes almost exactly four years earlier. During those four years without the death penalty there were about 12,000 more murders as compared to the four years prior to 1972, an increase of 19 percent, and more than 10,000 additional families who had raised a child who then became a murderer.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

 

[Arthur Brain]

I would imagine that had we gone back to executing criminals convicted of capital crimes in '73, those 1400 people you mention would still be alive and would be productive members of society, instead of most likely being convicted of crimes and put 6 feet under.

"Imagination" and unsupported assertion is all you've offered from pretty much the get go. In the meantime, it's all okay for six year old kids to be executed by being stabbed to death if "appropriate" and by your own words no less.

Tell me JR, what kind of person do you think would be capable of carrying such a sentence out? A well balanced individual? Do tell.

 

[Town Heretic]

I would imagine that had we gone back to executing criminals convicted of capital crimes in '73, those 1400 people you mention would still be alive and would be productive members of society, instead of most likely being convicted of crimes and put 6 feet under.

You can imagine anything, but there's really no reason to believe that. What we know is that we execute innocent people. We don't have to do that.