Sarah and Hagar (Law vs Grace). Are we killing the Gospel?

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Sarah and Hagar: Two Covenants

Galatians 4:

21 Tell me, those of you who want to be under the law, don’t you hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and the other by a free woman. 23 But the one by the slave was born according to the impulse of the flesh, while the one by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things are illustrations,[f] for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery—this is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

Rejoice, childless woman,
who does not give birth.
Burst into song and shout,
you who are not in labor,
for the children of the desolate are many,
more numerous than those
of the woman who has a husband.[g]
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so also now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

Drive out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never be a coheir with the son of the free woman.[h]

31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

......................

Romans 5:6-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Those Declared Righteous Are Reconciled
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die. 8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!

....................

1 John 1:8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

....................

Galatians 2:21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

..............


John 14:6Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

...............

So what do these verses have in common?

How is law vs grace so essential to conveying the Gospel to a hurting world, and why could it's misrepresentation be inhibiting our gospel commission?

Does it make us out to be liars with a false message when we approach the world without admission of our sins?

Is today's society of openness and honesty brick walling the gospel because Sinners are professing to be saints in the flesh?

Is it ok to limit our Love to all, to only those inside our religious comfort zone?

...........

Pick one question or pick them all, but please dazzle with your personal opinions and also your knowledge of scripture.

 

[patrick jane]

Galatians 2:21 KJV - King James is better

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Galatians 2:21 KJV - King James is better

So post it, but let's get this rolling. [emoji106]

 

[Interplanner]

Sarah and Hagar: Two Covenants

Galatians 4:

21 Tell me, those of you who want to be under the law, don’t you hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and the other by a free woman. 23 But the one by the slave was born according to the impulse of the flesh, while the one by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things are illustrations,[f] for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery—this is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

Rejoice, childless woman,
who does not give birth.
Burst into song and shout,
you who are not in labor,
for the children of the desolate are many,
more numerous than those
of the woman who has a husband.[g]
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so also now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

Drive out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never be a coheir with the son of the free woman.[h]

31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

......................

Romans 5:6-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Those Declared Righteous Are Reconciled
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die. 8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!

....................

1 John 1:8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

....................

Galatians 2:21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

..............


John 14:6Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

...............

So what do these verses have in common?

How is law vs grace so essential to conveying the Gospel to a hurting world, and why could it's misrepresentation be inhibiting our gospel commission?

Does it make us out to be liars with a false message when we approach the world without admission of our sins?

Is today's society of openness and honest brick walling the gospel because Sinners are professing to be saints in the flesh?

Is it ok to limit our Love to all, to only those inside our religious comfort zone?

...........

Pick one question or pick them all, but please dazzle with your personal opinions and also your knowledge of scripture.

These are great questions but none of them have much to do with Hagar and Sarah and in fact make a complicated place to start on any of them.

If you are just seeking to impress people with the fact that the law's demands must be fully met, just expound on the expression 'the righteousness of God in Christ' which is all over the place in Paul.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Sarah and Hagar (Law vs Grace). Are we killing the Gospel?

These are great questions but none of them have much to do with Hagar and Sarah and in fact make a complicated place to start on any of them.

If you are just seeking to impress people with the fact that the law's demands must be fully met, just expound on the expression 'the righteousness of God in Christ' which is all over the place in Paul.

Fair enough. Good point.

I may have to connect the theological dots.

Thank you for your help.

 

[Interplanner]

Paul underwrites the Law at the end of Rom 3 when he mentions that his Gospel has not set aside the Law. That's because once you see that all its demands for all mankind needed to be met in Christ, it is obviously honored and regarded highly (not ceremonial, dietary and ritual, but ongoing moral law).

 

[patrick jane]

Paul underwrites the Law at the end of Rom 3 when he mentions that his Gospel has not set aside the Law. That's because once you see that all its demands for all mankind needed to be met in Christ, it is obviously honored and regarded highly (not ceremonial, dietary and ritual, but ongoing moral law).

It's good to see that you're a dispy now !!

 

[Interplanner]

It's good to see that you're a dispy now !!

Ryrie never said such an understanding of the law was sine qua non (the indispensable belief) of D'ism. the sine qua non is 2P2P--that there are two programs and two peoples in the Bible that don't meet or merge.

Every Protestant non-D'ist theologian that I know refers to the 3 uses of the law:
1, social order
2, religious or ceremonial distinction for old covenant Israel because of the horrible cultures around them
3, to convict of sin for the purpose of relying on Christ's righteousness--ie, evangelistic.

As far as I know, they say only #2 is done away with.

 

[Nick M]

Those Declared Righteous Are Reconciled

No, all are reconciled, even his enemies. They are declared righteous after they receive his life. They receive his life when they trust him and his finished work.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Sarah and Hagar (Law vs Grace). Are we killing the Gospel?

Paul underwrites the Law at the end of Rom 3 when he mentions that his Gospel has not set aside the Law. That's because once you see that all its demands for all mankind needed to be met in Christ, it is obviously honored and regarded highly (not ceremonial, dietary and ritual, but ongoing moral law).

So now the Verses are starting to get some response....

I propose that the serpent was given the responsibility of death if mankind disobeyed God. In other words, the consequence of being like God was to be under the law, and suffer death because mankind cannot know good and evil, without performing evil.

For starters, Consider these verses..... Think of the fact that Paul was never born in a time he wasn't under the law. Further more, he uses the words SIN DECEIVED ME.

Compare this with Adam and Eve.

Romans 7

Sin’s Use of the Law

9Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
10and I died. The commandment that was meant for life resulted in death for me.
11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.

Now,

Reference this.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

55 Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?[a]
56 Now the sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law.

Do you see the implications here?

As in... From Dust we came and to dust we return.

Now think on the command that the serpent must consume dust for deceiving Adam and Eve.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Come on people... I promise that a great trove of spiritual armor will come from this quest. God has equipped us for battle more than we can imagine. He has done so in our very scriptures. Please tear at these questions and the connection of these verses. If I say this is my opinion, it becomes worthless, but if you approach this through scripture and the assembly of the verses connection with scripture, it becomes more clear.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Now think on the command that the serpent must consume dust for deceiving Adam and Eve.

How is it that Adam was deceived?

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Sarah and Hagar (Law vs Grace). Are we killing the Gospel?

How is it that Adam was deceived?

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

God does not come to us as Jesus as the second Eve.

Adam represents the Groom and Eve represents the bride.

A good groom holds himself responsible for his bride, even in her error, and in doing as she did, he was deceived as well, or accepted her deception to keep with scripture as your quote is excellent.

It was mankind that failed and it was God who prevailed

Adam.. Mankind

Jesus... God

Eve..... The bride...

The bride... Mankind

Adam was the first man.

Jesus was God with us, as in God amongst us as man, but fully God who depended on His Heavenly Father, (Spirit, Breath, Numa) to show us we could depend on Him. Or another way to say this is He outside of all time, entered time and relied on His being outside of all time to accomplish the magnificent gospel work. (That we servants, might become co heirs with the King and thus know our groom as FRIEND.

The groom of Grooms defeated evil out of Love for Creation.

Adam failed God by sharing equally in Eve's deception.

God did not share in our deception, but took responsibility for it, and in doing so, He defeated the hold of our deception.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

How is it that Adam was deceived?

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Also, excellent point.

I suggest that in this light, the word deceived refers to the bride, while Jesus as the second Adam refers to The head of the Bride.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

How is it that Adam was deceived?

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Note I said "Compare this with Adam AND Eve"

Not Adam alone

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

God does not come to us as Jesus as the second Eve.

Course not.

Just as Eve was taken out of Adam, God takes Jesus' bride out of him.

Adam represents the Groom and Eve represents the bride.

A good groom holds himself responsible for his bride, even in her error,

As only Christ Jesus can.

and in doing as she did, he was deceived as well,

Not what scripture says.

or accepted her deception to keep with scripture as your quote is excellent.

Which is what all men will do including Abraham the father of our faith.

Genesis 16:3
And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.


1 Cor 7
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

It was mankind that failed and it was God who prevailed

Failed what?

Adam.. Mankind

Jesus... God

Eve..... The bride...

The bride... Mankind

Adam was the first man.

Yep.....

Jesus was God with us, as in God amongst us as man, but fully God who depended on His Heavenly Father, (Spirit, Breath, Numa) to show us we could depend on Him. Or another way to say this is He outside of all time, entered time and relied on His being outside of all time to accomplish the magnificent gospel work. (That we servants, might become co heirs with the King and thus know our groom as FRIEND.

Okay.

The groom of Grooms defeated evil out of Love for Creation.

Adam failed God by sharing equally in Eve's deception.

God did not share in our deception, but took responsibility for it, and in doing so, He defeated the hold of our deception.

Once again not sure what you mean by failed God.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Course not.

Just as Eve was taken out of Adam, God takes Jesus' bride out of him.




As only Christ Jesus can.




Not what scripture says.




Which is what all men will do including Abraham the father of our faith.

Genesis 16:3
And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.


1 Cor 7
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.






Failed what?




Yep.....




Okay.


Once again not sure what you mean by failed God.

I love the way you have communicated all of this!

I also understand what you mean when you question what I mean by failed God.

LOL.. I mean that we didn't trust God in the first place and instead trusted the created. The accuser/deceiver to be precise. In that, we were deceived to trust ourselves and the created, instead of trust in God.

In other words, we failed to have faith in God's warning, and believed that we could oppose God's perfect plan and perfect leadership. This led to us being under the leadership of ourselves and of course the deceiver.

Important point though... Our failure or poor choice to put faith in ourselves / creation wasn't a big surprise to God, who managed to give free will, foresee our error in it's misuse, and have a corrective plan in motion before the foundation was laid. : )

God really is Amazing.. : )

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Sarah and Hagar (Law vs Grace). Are we killing the Gospel?

Course not.

Just as Eve was taken out of Adam, God takes Jesus' bride out of him.




As only Christ Jesus can.




Not what scripture says.




Which is what all men will do including Abraham the father of our faith.

Genesis 16:3
And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.


1 Cor 7
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.






Failed what?




Yep.....




Okay.


Once again not sure what you mean by failed God.

And also, I totally agree with your scripture quotes.... I would replace the idea that Adam was deceived as well, with Adam failed.

I have to say this because Adam and Eve and all like scriptural models are obviously human...

I cannot say that Eve was the dumb one and Adam was just pleasing his gal.

Adam and Eve failed as they were one flesh. Adam doesn't get a pass because he merely followed in suit with Eve, or Abraham, or any Patriarch for that matter.

The scripture makes it clear that the first Adam sinned, failed or whatever theological reference makes it pop correctly.

Bottom line is that Adam was responsible as the head of his marriage and could have thrown the food down and said... Eve, we're going to have to bring God into this. You were deceived by that nasty old dragon.

But instead, he just went along with the mistake.

This clearly makes the fall even worse on Adams account, if he wasn't deceived, then he knew he was disobeying God directly.

But above all, we as humanity manifest failure every time we put our trust in ourselves. Especially in government and religion. If man has a hand in it, it's going to get screwed up.

That is the result of God not being in any endeavor.

God 1 / Humanity and Creation 0

That's what I'm trying to convey.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I love the way you have communicated all of this!

I also understand what you mean when you question what I mean by failed God.

LOL.. I mean that we didn't trust God in the first place and instead trusted the created. The accuser/deceiver to be precise. In that, we were deceived to trust ourselves and the created, instead of trust in God.

In other words, we failed to have faith in God's warning, and believed that we could oppose God's perfect plan and perfect leadership. This led to us being under the leadership of ourselves and of course the deceiver.

Important point though... Our failure or poor choice to put faith in ourselves / creation wasn't a big surprise to God, who managed to give free will, foresee our error in it's misuse, and have a corrective plan in motion before the foundation was laid. : )

God really is Amazing.. : )

Yes, God is amazing.


I agree with your important point to this end.

The first man was of the earth.

No spiritual death.

1 Cor 15

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Yes, God is amazing.


I don't agree with your important point.

The first man was of the earth.

No spiritual death.

1 Cor 15

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Fair to say we disagree. It is a big point but also not. The agrees are far more reaching than the disagrees, but then I ask you this, are you suggesting that Adam did not fail, but only Eve did?

And also..... This is a point of the physical for fun discussion. The spiritual side of this, I believe we are identical in expressing.