Same old story..

[death2impiety]

Not only does He see what happens but He knows the jack is not seated properly, how much the car weighs, how much time the man has to live when it falls, He has all the power to hold the jack up for a few minutes longer without lifting a finger, etc.

Of course this is all true but does not imply that He ordained that all of it would happen. Whats more, His "seeing" of all this is extraneous when He has willed it all to be anyway.

How does He get off without being held ultimately responsible?

Because He isn't.

But you still didn't answer my question. Evil is not to be done so that good can come of it.

Basically it was:
-Does God abide by His own righteous standard?

I appreciate your posts. I'm just really trying to get at the heart of this idea. Its really on my mind right now...just trying to fathom why God would will such evil (and original sin to boot). I'm not seeking to understand why God would/did ordain such things because (simply because I don't believe it)...I'm trying to understand how a Christian could believe it.

 

[defcon]

Of course this is all true but does not imply that He ordained that all of it would happen. Whats more, His "seeing" of all this is extraneous when He has willed it all to be anyway.



Because He isn't.

Why?

But you still didn't answer my question. Evil is not to be done so that good can come of it.

Basically it was:
-Does God abide by His own righteous standard?

I appreciate your posts. I'm just really trying to get at the heart of this idea. Its really on my mind right now...just trying to fathom why God would will such evil (and original sin to boot). I'm not seeking to understand why God would/did ordain such things because (simply because I don't believe it)...I'm trying to understand how a Christian could believe it.

We have the story of Lazarus where Jesus finds out that he is sick. What does Jesus do? Run and heal him? Speak the words to heal him? No. He let's him die. Now, that obviously isn't a good thing but then after Jesus shows up after Lazarus is buried - He raises him from the dead = Good thing.

I believe that God is in complete control. Otherwise, God is a Diestic God where He spun the world in motion and sits back and let's us do whatever. Another choice is that He is a helpless God because He has given us the ability to "choose" and He "chooses" not to or "can't" know the future. What then do we have hope in when He says that He works all things out for the good of those that love Him? I also believe God is sovereign and any attempt to take things out of His control are not supported in Scripture. There is a lot more of course to this but I think all you wanted was for me to provide why I believe what I believe. I understand the free-will perspective and don't claim that any who believe in free-will aren't Christians. For the majority of my life I believed that way too. But as I've searched for answers I've come to the conclusion that predestination is what the Bible teaches. Others believe differently, and I have family and friends who believe differently. I hope this helps you understand why a Christian can believe in predestination.

 

[death2impiety]

Why?

What is this referring to?

We have the story of Lazarus where Jesus finds out that he is sick. What does Jesus do? Run and heal him? Speak the words to heal him? No. He let's him die. Now, that obviously isn't a good thing but then after Jesus shows up after Lazarus is buried - He raises him from the dead = Good thing.

I believe that God is in complete control. Otherwise, God is a Diestic God where He spun the world in motion and sits back and let's us do whatever. Another choice is that He is a helpless God because He has given us the ability to "choose" and He "chooses" not to or "can't" know the future. What then do we have hope in when He says that He works all things out for the good of those that love Him? I also believe God is sovereign and any attempt to take things out of His control are not supported in Scripture. There is a lot more of course to this but I think all you wanted was for me to provide why I believe what I believe. I understand the free-will perspective and don't claim that any who believe in free-will aren't Christians. For the majority of my life I believed that way too. But as I've searched for answers I've come to the conclusion that predestination is what the Bible teaches. Others believe differently, and I have family and friends who believe differently. I hope this helps you understand why a Christian can believe in predestination.

It would be a really good thing if Jesus brought my friend back from the dead but it ain't gunna happen.
He is not helpless because He can intervene. It's up to us whether or not we accept His guidance, otherwise everyone would come to Him.

 

[PureX]

I believe that God is far more forgiving than we are. I really don't think the fact that your friend was not a professing Christian has anything at all to do with his spiritual fate.

 

[defcon]

What is this referring to?

You stated that God wasn't responsible and was wondering why He isn't. It's not relevant though at this point. Don't worry about it.

He is not helpless because He can intervene. It's up to us whether or not we accept His guidance, otherwise everyone would come to Him.

Of course, that's the difference in beliefs. Hope this discussion has helped in some way.

 

[death2impiety]

I believe that God is far more forgiving than we are. I really don't think the fact that your friend was not a professing Christian has anything at all to do with his spiritual fate.

No way! :yawn:

 

[death2impiety]

You stated that God wasn't responsible and was wondering why He isn't. It's not relevant though at this point. Don't worry about it.



Of course, that's the difference in beliefs. Hope this discussion has helped in some way.

Discussing things in general is always nice, so I suppose it has. I'm not surprised that people are staying away from this thread. Thanks for your time.

 

[PureX]

It makes perfect sense that my friend's death is the result of his own actions and choices. I simply cannot attribute the mental anguish on his family and the elderly woman who killed him to "God's great plan." Surely if God choose to have control over every event in history, not one person would go to hell...

It was just an accident. No one wanted to die, and no one wanted to kill. There is no "reason" for it other than that this is how existence works. Sooner or later we're all going to die. Unfortunately, for some of us that time comes sooner rather than later and for those who love us it's painful having to accept that loss.

 

[death2impiety]

It was just an accident. No one wanted to die, and no one wanted to kill. There is no "reason" for it other than that this is how existence works. Sooner or later we're all going to die. Unfortunately, for some of us that time comes sooner rather than later and for those who love us it's painful having to accept that loss.

Indeed. I agree completely.