Same old story..

[death2impiety]

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was riding his motorcycle and was struck by a woman who ran a red light. The accident left him braindead and they promptly pulled the plug.

I'm trying so hard to understand why any of you out there would believe that God ordained that something like this would happen. My friend wasn't saved and his death will do nothing to bring others closer to God, if anything it has already pushed a few farther away.

I want answers from those predestined to understand.
These answers will not suffice:

-"You simply can't see/understand God's plan."
If God's plan involves damning one human to save another he is not God. Being, loving and just, God would have ordained a better way that doesn't involve so much destruction in the lives of the beings he claims to love. It makes sense that

-"These things happened to people in the past *quote bible verse here.*"
Quoting where someone else suffered doesn't make the reality of your god's childlike way of running the world any more real. To you God is a kid with a magnifying glass. This is unacceptable to me.
"The thought that providence would take a child away from his mother is appauling."

It makes perfect sense that my friend's death is the result of his own actions and choices. I simply cannot attribute the mental anguish on his family and the elderly woman who killed him to "God's great plan." Surely if God choose to have control over every event in history, not one person would go to hell...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I await a reasonable response.


RIP
William Griffin.

 

[Nineveh]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss, and his

 

[defcon]

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was riding his motorcycle and was struck by a woman who ran a red light. The accident left him braindead and they promptly pulled the plug.

I'm trying so hard to understand why any of you out there would believe that God ordained that something like this would happen. My friend wasn't saved and his death will do nothing to bring others closer to God, if anything it has already pushed a few farther away.

I want answers from those predestined to understand.
These answers will not suffice:

-"You simply can't see/understand God's plan."
If God's plan involves damning one human to save another he is not God. Being, loving and just, God would have ordained a better way that doesn't involve so much destruction in the lives of the beings he claims to love. It makes sense that

-"These things happened to people in the past *quote bible verse here.*"
Quoting where someone else suffered doesn't make the reality of your god's childlike way of running the world any more real. To you God is a kid with a magnifying glass. This is unacceptable to me.
"The thought that providence would take a child away from his mother is appauling."

It makes perfect sense that my friend's death is the result of his own actions and choices. I simply cannot attribute the mental anguish on his family and the elderly woman who killed him to "God's great plan." Surely if God choose to have control over every event in history, not one person would go to hell...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I await a reasonable response.


RIP
William Griffin.

I sympathize with your situation and your question (I recently went through a situation kind of like this). But is this really going to be an objective endeavor? I think that your situation will not allow any biblical reasoning or scripture that is presented to be viewed justly as shown from your post. I believe in predestination but to pretend that an answer can be provided that will make sense in your current circumstance is unreasonable. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[allsmiles]

I sympathize with your situation and your question (I recently went through a situation kind of like this). But is this really going to be an objective endeavor? I think that your situation will not allow any biblical reasoning or scripture that is presented to be viewed justly as shown from your post. I believe in predestination but to pretend that an answer can be provided that will make sense in your current circumstance is unreasonable. I will keep you in my prayers.

So if the bible doesn't make sense it's his fault because he's upset that his friend died?

Are you a robot? You sound like a robot...

 

[death2impiety]

I sympathize with your situation and your question (I recently went through a situation kind of like this). But is this really going to be an objective endeavor? I think that your situation will not allow any biblical reasoning or scripture that is presented to be viewed justly as shown from your post. I believe in predestination but to pretend that an answer can be provided that will make sense in your current circumstance is unreasonable. I will keep you in my prayers.

Thats exactly the point though...I'm not looking for it to make sense in this context, I'm looking for it to make sense, period. How could our "patient" God end someone's life early with the knowledge that they'd go to hell. Why is patience even necessary if He has it all planned out? How can patience exist to a God that knows and destines every outcome? The only answer is that is doesn't and that we are responsible for our own actions. He is patient with us, not with himself.

 

[allsmiles]

Thats exactly the point though...I'm not looking for it to make sense in this context, I'm looking for it to make sense, period. How could our "patient" God end someone's life early with the knowledge that they'd go to hell. Why is patience even necessary if He has it all planned out? How can patience exist to a God that knows and destines every outcome? The only answer is that is doesn't and that we are responsible for our own actions. He is patient with us, not with himself.

Absolutely, but do not look for it to make sense. It doesn't, it's chaos, this happens all of the time, to everyone. Bad things happen to everyone, it's not fair, it's chaotic, there's no method in madness. If there is a god, I'm sure it's aware of what happened and was powerless to do anything about it.

I'm very sorry D2I.

 

[ShadowMaid]

It's so sad that your friend died and was still unbelieving.

 

[Granite]

My sympathy. I'm very sorry.

 

[defcon]

So if the bible doesn't make sense it's his fault because he's upset that his friend died?

Are you a robot? You sound like a robot...

No, I'm not saying it's his fault, but predestination vs. free-will has been covered in many other threads. I understand that this is a very difficult situation and a lot of emotion and questions come up in these situations (I know because as I said - I went through something similar recently) but predestination vs. free-will is not an easy "one word or phrase" as other threads have shown. Apparently death2impiety has seen the case for predestination and doesn't see it as valid. I respectfully disagree (as I do with my friends and family members who believe in free-will), but I recognize that nothing will be resolved by discussing predestination under these circumstances. All I can do offer is my condolences and prayers.

 

[death2impiety]

Absolutely, but do not look for it to make sense. It doesn't, it's chaos, this happens all of the time, to everyone. Bad things happen to everyone, it's not fair, it's chaotic, there's no method in madness. If there is a god, I'm sure it's aware of what happened and was powerless to do anything about it.

I think God chooses not to interact. I believe it is within His ability to.

I'm very sorry D2I.

Thank you, so am i .

 

[Turbo]

Are you a robot? You sound like a robot...

He believes in exhaustive predestination, so he must effectively think he's a robot.

 

[cattyfan]

Thats exactly the point though...I'm not looking for it to make sense in this context, I'm looking for it to make sense, period. How could our "patient" God end someone's life early with the knowledge that they'd go to hell. Why is patience even necessary if He has it all planned out? How can patience exist to a God that knows and destines every outcome? The only answer is that is doesn't and that we are responsible for our own actions. He is patient with us, not with himself.

This will be difficult for me to answer, and I'll probably say something that will set another member off, but I'll try to say something helpful for you.

First of all, I understand completely what you're going through. A good friend of mine died in April. He was 38 and suddenly had a heart attack...there was no warning; he was just gone. And as far as I know, he was not a believer. I read over some of the letters he had written to me over the years and God was a subject he struggled with. His family is atheist...very much the quintessential east coast liberal college types. It bothers me that I don't know where his heart or faith were at his passing...and we can't know how God will weigh his life.

I know we are saved by faith and without belief in Christ, we're lost...but I also pray God is merciful. The idea of my friend in Hell because of nonbelief literally gives me nightmares...especially when I start to think I could have done a better job of expressing my belief and how it has helped me. Instead, that opportunity is lost and I carry grief and guilt for it.

But, again, we cannot know what God will do. the Bible illustrates in a number of ways that God can and does change His mind and we know God is merciful, These are the things in which I find comfort. I will not know until I stand before our Lord whether or not I will see my friend again...until then I will continue to follow and love the God I know and pray for mercy...for me...for all I know...and for those who choose not to open their hearts.

God is the only judge and it would be blasphemous for me to presume to know what He will do.

I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe we are just chess pieces God plays with. He created us, and He listens to us...but He didn't decide to suddenly kill your friend. He certainly can change anything and everything, but I believe He leaves it to us in most cases.

We have the choice of what we do...that woman chose to drive recklessly and stupidly, and in doing so, she ended your friend's life. God knew it would happen, but He didn't cause it. And there is no way to know how God will weigh and judge your friend's life. There is also no way for you to know if somewhere, deep in your friend's heart, there was a spark of faith.

Your friend's death may seem senseless...and in truth, dying because of someone else's stupidity does appear unfair...but it may cause the woman to turn to God for comfort and forgiveness.

Meanwhile, don't let this test of your faith cause you to turn from God, because nothing you have learned of God's mercy and love has changed.

May you God's peace fill your heart and ease your grief.

:cattyfan:

 

[death2impiety]

No, I'm not saying it's his fault, but predestination vs. free-will has been covered in many other threads. I understand that this is a very difficult situation and a lot of emotion and questions come up in these situations (I know because as I said - I went through something similar recently) but predestination vs. free-will is not an easy "one word or phrase" as other threads have shown. Apparently death2impiety has seen the case for predestination and doesn't see it as valid. I respectfully disagree (as I do with my friends and family members who believe in free-will), but I recognize that nothing will be resolved by discussing predestination under these circumstances. All I can do offer is my condolences and prayers.

I appreciate your prayers. I do. But I can't see how they would make any difference to a god that has it all planned out. What's the point of living with no control? When I can't control yet must still account for and be responsible for my actions...If you believe it, explain why God kills my friends (at least one a year so far) all who are not saved, along with countless children in third world countries and babies who have yet to even be born. You present a God that wills evil for good or for whatever purpose he believes in..

Romans 3:8
and not, according as we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just.

Does God hold us to the same righteous standard He abides by or not?

I think the point of this thread is me venting that the world view you hold really frustrates me. Way more so than the ones held by any agnostic or athiest. You actually believe that God causes this torment, that He has willed it. It's disgusting.

 

[death2impiety]

He believes in exhaustive predestination, so he must effectively think he's a robot.

I can always count on a laugh from someone.

 

[death2impiety]

This will be difficult for me to answer, and I'll probably say something that will set another member off, but I'll try to say something helpful for you.

First of all, I understand completely what you're going through. A good friend of mine dies in April. He was 38 and suddenly had a heart attack...there was no warning; he was just gone. And as far as I know, he was not a believer. I read over some of the letters he had written to me over the years and God was a subject he struggled with. His family is atheist...very much the quintessential east coast liberal college types. It bothers me that I don't know where his heart or faith were at his passing...and we can't know how God will weigh his life.

I know we are saved by faith and without belief in Christ, we're lost...but I also pray God is merciful. The idea of my friend in Hell because of nonbelief literally gives me nightmares...especially when I start to think I could have done a better job of expressing my belief and how it has helped me. Instead, that opportunity is lost and I carry grief and guilt for it.

But, again, we cannot know what God will do. the Bible illustrates in a number of ways that God can and does change His mind and we know God is merciful, These are the things in which I find comfort. I will not know until I stand before our Lord whether or not I will see my friend again...until then I will continue to follow and love the God I know and pray for mercy...for me...for all I know...and for those who choose not to open their hearts.

God is the only judge and it would be blasphemous for me to presume to know what He will do.

I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe we are just chess pieces God plays with. He created us, and He listens to us...but He didn't decide to suddenly kill your friend. He certainly can change anything and everything, but I believe He leaves it to us in most cases.

We have the choice of what we do...that woman chose to drive recklessly and stupidly, and in doing so, she ended your friend's life. God knew it would happen, but He didn't cause it. And there is no way to know how God will weigh and judge your friend's life. There is also no way for you to know if somewhere, deep in your friend's heart, there was a spark of faith.

Your friend's death may seem senseless...and in truth, dying because of someone else's stupidity does appear unfair...but it may cause the woman to turn to God for comfort and forgiveness.

Meanwhile, don't let this test of your faith cause you to turn from God, because nothing you have learned of God's mercy and love has changed.

May you God's peace fill your heart and ease your grief.

:cattyfan:

I don't blame God, nor am I angry at Him. I've had to deal with this enough to know that it's a part of life. Thanks for the kind words. I have hope that the "spark of faith" was seeded somewhere deep within him.

 

[allsmiles]

D2I, this is the last thing I'll say on this thread.

It was a horrible tragedy, my heart goes out to you and your friend's family.

Leave god out of this, god had nothing to do with this.

 

[death2impiety]

It's so sad that your friend died and was still unbelieving.

Second one this year. :em:

 

[death2impiety]

D2I, this is the last thing I'll say on this thread.

It was a horrible tragedy, my heart goes out to you and your friend's family.

Leave god out of this, god had nothing to do with this.

I agree.

 

[death2impiety]

I'd like a response. I enjoy healthy conversation and I'm hard to offend, even at a time like this.

Originally Posted by defcon
No, I'm not saying it's his fault, but predestination vs. free-will has been covered in many other threads. I understand that this is a very difficult situation and a lot of emotion and questions come up in these situations (I know because as I said - I went through something similar recently) but predestination vs. free-will is not an easy "one word or phrase" as other threads have shown. Apparently death2impiety has seen the case for predestination and doesn't see it as valid. I respectfully disagree (as I do with my friends and family members who believe in free-will), but I recognize that nothing will be resolved by discussing predestination under these circumstances. All I can do offer is my condolences and prayers.

I appreciate your prayers. I do. But I can't see how they would make any difference to a god that has it all planned out. What's the point of living with no control? When I can't control yet must still account for and be responsible for my actions...If you believe it, explain why God kills my friends (at least one a year so far) all who are not saved, along with countless children in third world countries and babies who have yet to even be born. You present a God that wills evil for good or for whatever purpose he believes in..

Romans 3:8
and not, according as we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just.

-Does God hold us to the same righteous standard He abides by (or rather, that He exists within) or not?

I think the point of this thread is me venting that the world view you hold really frustrates me. Way more so than the ones held by any agnostic or athiest. You actually believe that God causes this torment, that He has willed it. It's disgusting.

 

[defcon]

I'd like a response. I enjoy healthy conversation and I'm hard to offend, even at a time like this.




I appreciate your prayers. I do. But I can't see how they would make any difference to a god that has it all planned out. What's the point of living with no control? When I can't control yet must still account for and be responsible for my actions...If you believe it, explain why God kills my friends (at least one a year so far) all who are not saved, along with countless children in third world countries and babies who have yet to even be born. You present a God that wills evil for good or for whatever purpose he believes in..

Romans 3:8
and not, according as we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just.

-Does God hold us to the same righteous standard He abides by (or rather, that He exists within) or not?

I think the point of this thread is me venting that the world view you hold really frustrates me. Way more so than the ones held by any agnostic or athiest. You actually believe that God causes this torment, that He has willed it. It's disgusting.

Ok, I'll go forward here without any expectations. I don't think that anyone is qualified to answer why God does what he does. Now, if we are talking about responsibility and whether God is responsible - here is an example. Suppose I am helping a man change a tire, the jack slips, the car falls on the man and he is wounded and trapped. If I stand there and do nothing and let the man die, won't I be held responsible? Of course. What about God in that situation? Not only does He see what happens but He knows the jack is not seated properly, how much the car weighs, how much time the man has to live when it falls, He has all the power to hold the jack up for a few minutes longer without lifting a finger, etc. How does He get off without being held ultimately responsible?