ECT Romans 3:30 (for STP)
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
I'll give my answer why you wait on STP.
This is one instance when knowing what the Greek says is helpful.
Romans 3:30 KJV Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
In Greek:
Romans 3:30 επειπερ εις ο θεος ος δικαιωσει περιτομην εκ πιστεως και ακροβυστιαν δια της πιστεως
At first glance it may appear that this is speaking of two different methods of being saved (one by faith, and one through faith).
The preposition εκ indicates motion out from an origin (the starting place can be physical or mental).
In some fairly rare constructions it can also indicate purpose (but not in this construction).
What the preposition δια indicates depends on the construction of either of the following:
1 - motion through (a physical place, a situation, an idea - with the genitive)
2 - the means by which something occurs ("on account of," "because of" - with the accusative).
The one we are looking at is linked to the genitive, so it indicates motion (#1).
By using these two (εκ and δια) together as contrasts, it indicates the starting points (origins), not the methods.
In other words, the starting point (origin) of the circumcision's faith was long ago, while the starting point (origin) of the uncircumcision's faith was recent.
The circumcision was raised on this faith of the Christ from childhood, while the uncircumcision were just recently being taught the faith of the Christ.
The method of salvation is the same for both (faith), no mater when the starting point was.
So it is not a different method, it is a different starting point that all leads to the same ending by means of the same thing (faith in Christ).
At first glance I would say that would be a stretch.
But let me look at it some more.
Remember, this is only about faith, not works.
While the kingdom demanded faith and works, the BOC does not.
But the "faith" was the same for both.
So it's not really about Faith/works vs. faith alone, but only the "faith" aspect.
BUT ...... just as I was typing this I thought of James saying his faith without works was dead, kinda indicating there was no faith without works for them.
Sooooooooooooo, you might have a point, Nick.
I'm gonna think on this some more.
Scripture, and especially Paul, often incorporate puns with their words.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Tam,
I thought you did pretty well until this hodge-podge:
While the kingdom demanded faith and works, the BOC does not.
What in the world?
I thought you did pretty well until this hodge-podge:
While the kingdom demanded faith and works, the BOC does not.
What in the world?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
There is a difference, though I'm not sure I can fully explain.
My notion is that "by faith" men did so and so. "Through faith" is something already done, something received, that God provided.
This stems from a comment made by a poster that "salvation has always been through faith". Not true.
Only in this dispensation is it through faith. Other times it was by faith.
Check out the so-called faith chapter, Hebrews 11. I've read it many times.
It's by faith, by faith, by faith, and then a couple instances of through faith.
My notion is that "by faith" men did so and so. "Through faith" is something already done, something received, that God provided.
This stems from a comment made by a poster that "salvation has always been through faith". Not true.
Only in this dispensation is it through faith. Other times it was by faith.
Check out the so-called faith chapter, Hebrews 11. I've read it many times.
It's by faith, by faith, by faith, and then a couple instances of through faith.
musterion
Well-known member
That's along the lines of what I was thinking. The circumcision had the covenant conditions to meet by remaining faithful to them, as nationally agreed to before Moses. We dogs, on the other hand, are justified through faith solely in what CHRIST did FOR us, not by what we can do for ourselves (which is nothing).
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes sir.
I think of it this way.
By faith + works unto Grace, them
By Grace through faith, us
Faith and Grace has always been involved, but differently.
Does grace depend on English prepositions or is grace always grace?
nobody knows :idunno:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Is it safer to walk by a fire, or through a fire?
Yes, but I have heard the Shadow knows what evil lurks in the heart of men.
Is it safer to be saved by grace through faith or to be saved by grace by faith? I believe those who achieve immortality could care less.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
It is safer to be saved by grace through faith, than by faith unto grace.
If you just want to feel the heat, go by the fire.
If you want the dross purged, gotta go through it.
Unless the fire is for wrath.
Then you would definitely just want to go by it, not through it.
musterion
Well-known member
Litrul or figgurtive fire?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Whichever'n the burnin' bush wuz...
In the material realm faith is an action which makes it a work. However, the bible clearly points out that faith in terms of our salvation is not to be credited as a work.
If I have to believe the gospel to be saved then I'm required to do something for my salvation. But my action is of no merit because in the context of saving faith it is the object of faith, the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Jewish Messiah that saves and not my faith that saves.
If there is a report hurricane arriving this evening and I have faith in it and I take my family to an emergency shelter to weather a storm that ripped the roof from my house, then my faith saved me.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
If I have to believe the gospel to be saved then I'm required to do something for my salvation. But my action is of no merit because in the context of saving faith it is the object of faith, the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Jewish Messiah that saves and not my faith that saves.
If there is a report hurricane arriving this evening and I have faith in it and I take my family to an emergency shelter to weather a storm that ripped the roof from my house, then my faith saved me.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL