People were not indwelled with the Holy Spirit in the OT. That only happened after Pentecost in Acts 2.
That's what I meant.
Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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People were not indwelled with the Holy Spirit in the OT. That only happened after Pentecost in Acts 2.
That's what I meant.
Happy New Year, Tel!
That aside, your unbelief in your obvious ignorance of the following, is dully noted.
Joshua 3:11 Behold, the ark of the covenant of the LORD of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan. 3:12 Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man. 3:13 And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the LORD of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap. 3:14 And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people; 3:15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,) 3:16 That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho. 3:17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.
That "salt sea" is the Dead Sea - and one that the God of all Creation, Genesis 1:1, apparantly encounters no problem whatsoever with working its' coarse, or that of any other body of water, to His Own Purpose, at HIS Will.
So much so that that event was commanded by Him to be memorialized by Israel, that their Nation might always remember that NOTHING had EVER been impossible for the God of their fathers...
Joshua 4:1 And it came to pass, when all the people were clean passed over Jordan, that the LORD spake unto Joshua, saying, 4:2 Take you twelve men out of the people, out of every tribe a man, 4:3 And command ye them, saying, Take you hence out of the midst of Jordan, out of the place where the priests' feet stood firm, twelve stones, and ye shall carry them over with you, and leave them in the lodging place, where ye shall lodge this night. 4:4 Then Joshua called the twelve men, whom he had prepared of the children of Israel, out of every tribe a man: 4:5 And Joshua said unto them, Pass over before the ark of the LORD your God into the midst of Jordan, and take you up every man of you a stone upon his shoulder, according unto the number of the tribes of the children of Israel: 4:6 That this may be a sign among you, that when your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean ye by these stones? 4:7 Then ye shall answer them, That the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD; when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off: and these stones shall be for a memorial unto the children of Israel for ever. 4:8 And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the LORD spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there. 4:9 And Joshua set up twelve stones in the midst of Jordan, in the place where the feet of the priests which bare the ark of the covenant stood: and they are there unto this day. 4:10 For the priests which bare the ark stood in the midst of Jordan, until everything was finished that the LORD commanded Joshua to speak unto the people, according to all that Moses commanded Joshua: and the people hasted and passed over. 4:11 And it came to pass, when all the people were clean passed over, that the ark of the LORD passed over, and the priests, in the presence of the people. 4:12 And the children of Reuben, and the children of Gad, and half the tribe of Manasseh, passed over armed before the children of Israel, as Moses spake unto them: 4:13 About forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the LORD unto battle, to the plains of Jericho. 4:14 On that day the LORD magnified Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they feared him, as they feared Moses, all the days of his life. 4:15 And the LORD spake unto Joshua, saying, 4:16 Command the priests that bear the ark of the testimony, that they come up out of Jordan. 4:17 Joshua therefore commanded the priests, saying, Come ye up out of Jordan. 4:18 And it came to pass, when the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD were come up out of the midst of Jordan, and the soles of the priests' feet were lifted up unto the dry land, that the waters of Jordan returned unto their place, and flowed over all his banks, as they did before. 4:19 And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of Jericho. 4:20 And those twelve stones, which they took out of Jordan, did Joshua pitch in Gilgal. 4:21 And he spake unto the children of Israel, saying, When your children shall ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean these stones? 4:22 Then ye shall let your children know, saying, Israel came over this Jordan on dry land. 4:23 For the LORD your God dried up the waters of Jordan from before you, until ye were passed over, as the LORD your God did to the Red sea, which he dried up from before us, until we were gone over: 4:24 That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.
Thus, John the Baptist's reminder to Israel - on that very spot, centuries later - of this Effectual working of God's Power...
Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Isaiah would well have noted of the above, ridiculous assertion of your school - "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" - Isaiah 8:20
Acts 17: 11, 12.
I agree with everything, but I believe the Old Covenant didn't come to a complete end until 70AD.
There was an overlap of 40 years.
(Heb 8:13) By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
At the time Hebrews was written (after the cross, but before 70AD), the OC obsolete and outdated, and was soon to disappear for good (which happened in 70AD.
Another one of his deceptive, grade school ploys, gimmicks:-"man made"
You:Christ Jesus is would not come to earth, be born in a "man made" stable, be placed in a "man made" manger, preach in a "man made" temple, wear "man made" clothes, sit in a "man made" boat, be crucified on a "man made" cross,.........................................
Well done, Craig, Keep posting.
You Dispies crack me up. On one hand you say to take everything literal. Then when something is literally impossible, but you still say to take it literal, you then say "God can do anything".
Yet, when someone else says it's metaphorical, you accuse them of unbelief.
Here is why Jesus was referring to Zech 14 in John 7:
To summarize:
1) The Jews would read all of Zech 14 OUT LOUD on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles.
2) Zech 14 refers to the Feast of Tabernacles 3 times.
3) The priests would perform a water pouring ceremony each day of the Feast of Tabernacles
4) Zech 14 has a prophecy about Living Water flowing from Jerusalem.
4) In John 7, Jesus is at the Feast of Tabernacles
5) Zech 14 was read out loud at the Feast of Tabernacles that Jesus was at.
6) Jesus is at the temple during the Feast of Tabernacles where there would have been many jars of water for the water pouring.
7) At the Feast of Tabernacles Jesus says "Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
8) The only prophecy in the OT about "living water" is from Zech 14, which was just read out loud at the feast.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
One of the leading Preterists today is Gary deMar and look what he says about the following verses from Zech 14:
2"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city."
3"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."
4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech.14:2-4).
In regard to verse two, Gary DeMar says: "This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem...Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D.70."
He then attempts to explain verse three,saying,"After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment."
Since the Lord Jesus did not fight against the nation of Rome during the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 Gary DeMar quotes G.N.M Collins: "It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem."
DeMar continues: "Thomas Scott concurs: 'It is also observable, that the Romans after having been made the executioners of divine vengence on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders.' "
According to DeMar the battle when the Lord fights against the nations that came against Jerusalem is nothing more than the idea that the Roman Empire "never prospered as they had before."
We are supposed to believe that this battle was not really a battle but instead only represents the beginning of the decline of the Roman Empire because that nation "never prospered as they had done before".
However, Zechariah wrote,"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."
As when He fought in the day of battle. These words should lead those who read them to think of the following events which describe the Lord as a "Man of War."
"The LORD is a Man of War: the LORD is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea" (Ex.15:3-4).
If the Lord is going to fight against those nations "as when He fought in the day of battle" then the battle will not be a matter of a single nation "not prospering" as she did before but instead it will be comparable to when the Lord destroyed Pharaoh's army.
The battle which Zechariah describes is not in regard to a decline of a single nation that lasts for hundreds years until at last she is subverted!
DeMar employs what Robert L. Thomas describes as an "extreme allegorical approach" of interpreting prophecy. This approach leaves his interpretations lacking any resemblance to what Zechariah originally wrote. DeMar does not seem to realize that his method of interpreting these verses brings prophecy into contempt and ridicule.
In fact, the Preterist's entire method of interpreting the Scriptures brings prophecy into contempt and ridicule.
Translation-I revised it for you-You:It is literally and physically impossible for my impotent God to make water to flow from Jerusalem to either the Dead Sea or the Mediterranean Sea, let alone both at the same time.
Tell us about how it is literally and physically impossible for God., humans to raise the dead, how it is literally and physically impossible for a virgin to give birth to a human, or..........................................Tell us these are just "metaphorical."
Do be a dear. Teach us-please?
I couldn't care less what Gary DeMar says.
Read Micah 1, and you will find almost the same metaphoric language you find in Zech 14.
In Micah 1, God comes down from heaven and stands on mountains, then the mountains melt, and then the valleys melt.
None of Micah 1 was literal, it was Micah describing the Assyrians invading the northern nation of Israel.
God didn't literally come down from heaven, God didn't literally stand on top of mountains, the mountains didn't literally melt, and valleys didn't literally melt.
Yet, you take the same metaphoric language in Zech 14, and claim it is all literal.
We know from history, that what happened in Jerusalem from 66AD to 70AD by the Roman army was even more devastating, and more severe than what the Assyrian army did.
I corrected myself John.
The Holy Spirit existed in the OT.
What I meant was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that has taken place since the Day of Pentecost.
One who denies the resurrection, "virgin conception/birth,".............to you/Christians:
"You guys/Christians crack me up!!! A virgin giving birth to a human, God raising the dead, men raising the dead, men making the blind see.......is literally impossible!!! But you still say to take it literal, you then say 'God can do anything'."
Well done, humanist Craig. Please do no witnessing to our faith.
I did not ask that. I asked why you lied? your motivation?
John makes it crystal clear in John 7, that "living water" referred to the Holy Spirit when Jesus said "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"
(John 7:39) But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Yet, you Dispies want us to believe "living water" in the future is going to be some kind of literal living water, that not one of you has explained what it is.
Nor has any of you Dispies told us what scripture Jesus was referring to John 7:38.
Right Divider
Body part
:rotfl:
Hypocrite, actor. Oh, we see. When others tell you,that we couldn't care less what Darby, Bullinger................... says, you go into your "Darby" cry baby, deceitful spam, having your pants tied in a knot, have a tantrum, despite the fact that the bible instructs us to learn from other teachers.
I'm not parroting DeMar.
You guys parrot Darby.
Last I checked, DeMar didn't invent a belief system in 1840, like Darby did.
Evasion, moving the goal posts, misdirection.
One of your arguments against it, was because it is literally and physically "impossible." I was challenging you on that.
So, you are on record, by your argument, that the resurrection, a virgin giving birth to a human,........................is not literal, it did not happen-literally and physically impossible.
Paul said that the law was nailed to the cross, Colossians 2:14. We must therefore believe that the Old Covenant was abolished when Jesus died on the cross.