Richard Holland: God, Time, and the Incarnation Pt 3

[S0ZO]

Wow, I'm amazed how incredibly "limited" your tunnel vision is.

You have a god who experienced no relationship, no movement, no love, prior to creation. That's just you, not thinking clearly.

 

[Nang]

Wow, I'm amazed how incredibly "limited" your tunnel vision is.

Back at ya, fella.

You have a god who experienced no relationship, no movement, no love, prior to creation. That's just you, not thinking clearly.

You have no basis for inserting these accusations, here. We are discussing the properties of time, are we not?

There is nothing I have posted in discussion that should make you think I deny relationship, movement, or love of God prior to creation. All these things are the essence of the Triune Godhead.

Your rebuttals look and smell like they are canned; not fresh.

 

[S0ZO]

You have no basis for inserting these accusations, here. We are discussing the properties of time, are we not?

Properties? Again, you just can't think past what you see (creation). Your view of what time is, is skewed by not being able to think beyond what is created. God is. Love is. Truth is. Movement is. Relationship is. Communication is. Time is.

These are all before creation. You appear to believe only in that which involves those things created.

Communication is an event. Movement is an event. God moves, communicates, loves, apart from creation. Time is, because events are part of who God is.

 

[S0ZO]

Are the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, eternal?

Was a relationship created? Of course not.

 

[Nang]

Properties? Again, you just can't think past what you see (creation). Your view of what time is, is skewed by not being able to think beyond what is created. God is. Love is. Truth is. Movement is. Relationship is. Communication is.

Yes, because all of these are attributes of God.

Time is.

God works within His created time, but God is not subject to time.

These are all before creation.

And you have yet to make a scriptural case for this assertion.

You appear to believe only in that which involves those things created.

If this accusation were correct, I would not be a believer in God.

Communication is an event. Movement is an event. God moves, communicates, loves, apart from creation. Time is, because events are part of who God is.

I disagree.

"Events" are the works of God in time. Events make up the entirety of temporal history. History is His story.

 

[Nang]

Are the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, eternal?

Yes, of course.

Was a relationship created? Of course not.

Correct. I agree.

So what does the eternal relationship within the Godhead have to do with the properties of temporality (time)?

 

[S0ZO]

Yes, because all of these are attributes of God.

Followed by...


And you have yet to make a scriptural case for this assertion.

Clearly, you are double-minded about this, and just looking to defend something that has no defense.

If this accusation were correct, I would not be a believer in God.

Exactly.

"Events" are the works of God in time. Events make up the entirety of temporal history. History is His story.

Then God never had a relationship prior to creation. You can't have it both ways.

So what does the eternal relationship within the Godhead have to do with the properties of temporality (time)?

You really are a bonehead. No point debating someone as stupid as you.

Like I said, you have "predetermined" that time is a thing that can only apply to created things. You can't comprehend anything beyond your very own preconceived theories. Your mind is stuck in gear. God has a relationship outside of creation. God has moved. God has communicated. Those are events. More than one event cannot be apart from time, just as communication cannot be apart from relationship.

 

[Nang]

God has moved. God has communicated. Those are events. More than one event cannot be apart from time, just as communication cannot be apart from relationship.

Attributes of God are not "events."

Attributes of God define who He is.

The relationships within the Godhead are not "events."

The relationships within the Godhead define who God is.

"Time" is not necessary for God to be God, for He is Eternal.

To speak of eternal and temporal (time) in the same breath, is an oxymoron.

 

[S0ZO]

Attributes of God are not "events."

Is God creator or not?

Did God create, or is creation eternal?

 

[Nick M]

Time is the basis for all history, which God determines, predicts, and accomplishes. All things decreed by God happen to the very hour, prophesied by God.

Jeremiah 19

4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Genesis 6

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

You see, nag isn't dumb. She is evil. Her post is evil. It isn't mistaken theology. She wants people read it and think Adolph Hitler's actions were orchestrated by God.

This demolishes their very premise, that God does not know how all things will work out, or what contingencies might have to be dealt with.

Judges 14

3Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?”

And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.”

4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

God is planning for the future. That in and of itself is a contingency plan.

 

[Nang]

Is God creator or not?

Did God create, or is creation eternal?

Sigh . . .

The whole point being, S0ZO, is that creation is temporal. Thus, temporal measurement of time is part of creation, not eternity.

Eternity is uncreate without beginning or end. How can infinity be measured?

 

[Nang]

Jeremiah 19

4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Jeremiah is declaring the actions of Israel/Judah as being against the word of God. They were never commanded by God to worship in such fashion. This reveals the wickedness and unbelief of sinful men. It does not teach that God never knew what they would do. It simply means He did not command them to act wickedly.

Genesis 6

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Again, God distances Himself from mans' wickedness. God holds man accountable for their acts. God is not the author of sin, nor is God stupid to wicked hearts. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked or in their reprobate ways; however, God will be glorified in His judgment of them.

You see, nag isn't dumb. She is evil. Her post is evil. It isn't mistaken theology. She wants people read it and think Adolph Hitler's actions were orchestrated by God.

I would report you for aligning God with the wickedness of Hitler, but being a lifetime member, it would do no good.

You have been given carte blanche to misrepresent other faiths and post insulting nonsense, and there is nothing any of us can do about you.

Judges 14

3Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?”

And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.”

4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

God is planning for the future. That in and of itself is a contingency plan.

Ordained events decreed by God, are not "contingency plans."

You are a theological mess . . .

 

[Lighthouse]

The beginning was the beginning of time and the other end shall be the end of time. Also known as the Alpha and the Omega that Messiah said He was. There is nothing visible or in visible that was not created by Him and that includes all forms of measurement of which time is just one.

''For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:''


''All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.''

PS there is no time in eternity.

PPS time and times are used 764 times in scripture and it first usage defines the need for time. Gen 4:3 and the last usage is also enlightening Rev 22:10

1. How do you know time was created? Where's the evidence of this?
2. Revelation 8:1 shows there to be time in Heaven: "When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

In eternity there are no broken pencils.


The reason for this is simple. If there were a broken pencil in eternity then there would have to have been a ''time'' when the pencil was whole. Eternity has no beginning and no end…..hence the term eternal.

If there were a broken pencil in eternity then it would mean there was scope for imperfection at the Throne….perish the thought.


PS eternal….Being without beginning or end. Perpetual, timeless, uninterrupted or endless.

Where is the evidence that time is not eternal?

 

[Truster]

1. How do you know time was created? Where's the evidence of this?
2. Revelation 8:1 shows there to be time in Heaven: "When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

Where is the evidence that time is not eternal?

Are you serious? The Bible is explicit as to the end of time.

 

[Tambora]

The whole point being, S0ZO, is that creation is temporal. Thus, temporal measurement of time is part of creation, not eternity.

Sure, we have temporal measurement of time concerning motion in creation.
But it does not necessarily follow that time itself is temporal, unless one thinks that God was completely motionless when there was no creation.

Eternity is uncreate without beginning or end. How can infinity be measured?

The same way it always has been. We count time as being between one motion to another motion. Thus we have motion that is said to be before or after another motion.
God was in motion before creation existed, and God was in motion after creation existed.

 

[Nang]

1. How do you know time was created?

1. 
   
   God created day and nights to keep track of times.
   
   You wouldn't know the time, if inventors had not made clocks.
   
   God gave us the sun, moon, stars and seasons with which to measure our times.
   
   
   

   [*]Revelation 8:1 shows there to be time in Heaven: "When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

Half an hour, observed in earthly time.

Where is the evidence that time is not eternal?

How does one prove a negative or a nothing?

 

[Tambora]

In Bob's interview with Richard Holland, another point that must be considered was made.

Matthew 26 KJV
(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?​

This presents a problem to those who hold the view that everything was decreed beforehand, making it impossible for God to do anything differently.
In other words, Jesus could not have truthfully said the above unless it were possible that the Father could have done so at that moment.

 

[Nang]

In Bob's interview with Richard Holland, another point that must be considered was made.

Matthew 26 KJV
(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?​

This presents a problem to those who hold the view that everything was decreed beforehand, making it impossible for God to do anything differently.
In other words, Jesus could not have truthfully said the above unless it were possible that the Father could have done so at that moment.

Heh . . . if it had happened according to Jesus' hypothetical that pointed to the power of God to do such a thing, then we would know that it had been decreed by God before creation, to send the 12 legions of angels that night.

You are in a mindset, and listening to people, that believe God only moves reactively.

Not so . . .

 

[Lighthouse]

Are you serious? The Bible is explicit as to the end of time.

Then you should have no problem quoting it...

 

[Nang]

Sure, we have temporal measurement of time concerning motion in creation.
But it does not necessarily follow that time itself is temporal, unless one thinks that God was completely motionless when there was no creation.

The same way it always has been. We count time as being between one motion to another motion. Thus we have motion that is said to be before or after another motion.
God was in motion before creation existed, and God was in motion after creation existed.

Please define this "motion" you ascribe to eternal God. Do you call these "motions," "events" like S0ZO does?

Are you claiming there is a historical timeline of events that have occurred in eternity, like there have been in the temporal creation?

Do you realize this assertion would require an explanation of the beginning of the events ("motions")?

When did God first begin to move? What was the attributes of God before He (supposedly) first moved? Were they the same or different than His present attributes in any way?

Can you defend this biblically?