REPORT: On Over-population

Jaltus

New member
Zak,

What kind of churches and can you use statistics to back it up?

Remember, many cases that happen in churches are given the "air time" on TV, but that does not mean the rate is higher or even comparable to tohter institutions (no, I don't have one in mind, just making a point).
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Zar, 46% were in men who have sex with men (MSM), 25% in injecting drug users. I dunno how much more clear it can be.

Ok, so I'm naive and foolish, but lacking the evidence, I'm not a liar.

Pilgrimagain,
I didn't call Bob a liar, you did. Well, in your own beat-around-the-bush-non-offensive way. I read the article about 5+ years ago, in what could have been one or more of several publications I was reading at the time. I tend to think it was about IPS in Indiana, and the gripe from parents was enough to make it stop. I could be wrong on the reference, though. No, I didn't put it in a "in case I get called a liar" file. I didn't write the story citing the info, so I didn't think it worth filing anywhere but in my mental "oh gee, another pullik skool folly" file. You don't have to believe me. No one said you did. You can call me a liar on this, but I don't care enough about it to stare at hours of microfiche at the library to exhonorate myself. Beanieboy called me on a nurse's testimony, I provided the link to the federal hearings. Someone else called me on the Islamic curriculum in California, so I provided the links to various sources. So far I have tried to present the truth with references. But like I said, if it bothers you this badly that you think I should pour over hours of materials from years ago for a reference to a story I didn't write, I got better things to do. It would be easier to settle the matter if you just emailed Bob at kgov@aol.com, you can even tell him not to read it on the air so he won't get any publicity or whatever zar thinks he would get, but you will get your reference or absolute proof Bob is lying.
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
What kind of churches and can you use statistics to back it up?

Well just for starters the people in Boston are in an uproar right now over the Catholic churches seeming reluctance to remove a known pedofile from youth ministry positions in the diocese. Here in Detroit there is an on going investigation into allegations of a family of ministers at a local free church. I hear of this stuff all the time. I would be interested to see statistics though to see how prevalent it is.

Peace,
Pilgrim
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
Ok, I emailed Bob to do your foot work for you...let's see what happens.

Peace,
Pilgrim
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Zakath says…
Aww, c'mon Nathon. The least you could have done to honor your hero was come up with an original complement instead of recyling text from this poor, dumb atheist.
I just had to get in on some of that “back patting”.

You continue…
Don't forget churches! Many incidents of pedophilia occur in churches.
Good point, and don’t you think those pedophiles should be executed?
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
: Laughing : See? I got KGov's address wrong !!

KGOVLive@aol.com

Next time, check out your own facts. Please note my bottom signature. Good luck :) Let us know what you find out?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Jaltus said:
Zak,

What kind of churches and can you use statistics to back it up?

Remember, many cases that happen in churches are given the "air time" on TV, but that does not mean the rate is higher or even comparable to tohter institutions (no, I don't have one in mind, just making a point).
My use of "many" was referring to precisely those cases that get air time and, based on personal experience in the ministry, a significant number of others that are swept under the rug. The pedophilia and abuse problem is so bad for the Anglicans that one diocese in Canada was forced to the brink of bankruptcy due to lawsuits. (see http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A59293-2001Dec5)

My point in bringing churches into the discussion is that folks like our Enyartians tend to gloss over or ignore completely the grievous sins of the Christian clergy while vigorously and vocally condemning the non-Christian laity.

There's plenty of blame to go around. Sexual dysfunction is a universal human condition.
 
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Mr. Ben

New member
Ninevah,

Ben, without personal responsability there can be no freedom.

Freedom is a double edged sword. If you're a student of history, you are probably aware that liberal democracies or republics and open societies haven't had a great deal of longevity throughout the ages.

The dynamism of the United States, and its position in the world I think can be directly attributed to the level of personal freedom and free expression it encourages in its citizens. Unfortunately, if you are going to profit from the benefits of freedom, you're also going to have to accept it's bad points.

Specifically, when you encourage free expression and differing views, you are going to find that there will be folks who disagree with you. Not only that, but some of these folks, by any measure, will be wrong headed and engage in behavior or promote views that you believe to be (and may indeed actually be) wrong. However, in these cases you must ask yourself, is it worth it to attempt to compel these individuals to tow the line, or will my attempts to force these individuals to behave in a way acceptable to you will both fail to convert them to my way of thinking and at the same time decrease the positive benefits of free expression for everyone.

Amost everyone in a diverse society such as we live in probably feels that there are large groups of people who, if they had their way, they would compel to behave differently. Christians, liberals, fundamentalists moslems, atheists, etc. If we were to allow any of these groups to compel any of the others to conform in their personal and private lives or public attitudes to another groups rules, we wouldn't really have freedom.

The Taliban, with it's shariah, imposed a monochromatic intellectually, economically, and even spiritually bankrupt system on their entire country. Do you really think it was worth the torture, the destruction of personal liberty, and creativity and industry of the Afghan people to ensure that adulterers were given the proper public executions Islam demands.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Ben,

I've dragged this thread way off topic as it is. If you are asking me if the taliban is good, no. But I don't think going deeper into how I believe the lack of personal responsability will be the downfall of our nation would be a good idea on this thread :)
 

beanieboy

New member
Nathon Detroit said:
Beinie writes…Ya know I have heard others say this exact statement regarding several topics. I really think its a lame argument. When something is illegal does that mean the authorities necessarily go looking for it? Do we put camera’s in people’s houses looking for murderers or pedophiles???? Yet in houses is where the majority of these types of crimes happen. Along with dozens of other types of lessor crimes.

MINE is a lame argument?

Cain kills Abel - in his house. The police won't be looking into this? That as long as Cain minds his own business, he will easily get away with murder?

Now, Adam and Steve live together, and never seem to have girlfriends, and seem to like each other a lot, as well as a fabulous garden, and only 1 bedroom. You are suggesting that the police should - what? The same thing they would do with someone who is murdered? Present them with a search warrant to see if the adults are engaging in consensual sex? Spend countless man hours watching their every move, or doing stake outs in front of their house? "1 Adam 12, we have a neighbor reporting suspicion of sexual activity between two men at a residence on Rice Street." "We'll be right there!" Neeeener neeeener.

Whew. And the world was safe once again.

My argument is not lame. I want to know how they would enforce it. They aren't going to turn each other in. So how do you proprose illegalizing consensual sex between two adults in the privacy of your own home? What, other than Big Brother, would work? Word of mouth? Have you read the Crucible?

You need hard evidence to convict people of crimes. I want to know how one would go about collecting that evidence.

I would also like to know why. If we argue AIDS, then we have to look at the fact that it can be spread through heterosexual sex. Does that mean we should illegalize all sex?

That is should be illegal is lame. There is nothing to support how it harms another that can't equally be said of heterosexuals. That it upsets you is not "harm," any more than making being athiest should be illegal because it makes you uncomfortable. Comparing homosexuality - sex between two consenting adults - to murder - one killing another against their will - or pedophilia - an adult engaging in sex with a child through trickery, threat, and manipulation - is lame.

Then again, most of us understand the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.
 
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KurtPh

New member
If anyone is still interested in discussing population issues...

If anyone is still interested in discussing population issues...

I remember when first listened to Mr. Enyart agrgue that overpopulation was not a problem. It was in, I think, August of 1998 when he responded to a caller who wished to discuss the issue of overpopulation. What follows is my response to his analysis (much of which can be found in the report posted). Now, keep in mind, I was much younger, so my rhetorical skills are not quite as keen as they are now ;).


I was listening to your programme Friday night when the subject of overpopulation came up. You contend that overpopulation is a myth. I do not agree with you. There are a number of points which I want to discuss. Since an emotional appeal will likely fall upon deaf ears, and I will be categorised as a "stupid liberal", I will try instead to appeal to your sense of logic.

I would first like to state that you were not completely honest with your young caller when you used the example of Israel in dismissing overpopulation. He stated that Somalia, while not overpopulated in the sense that people could not move, was overpopulated in the sense that there were more people than could be supported by the land. You countered him by stating that Israel, also once barren, was made to bloom through the hard work of its citizens. You are correct that respect; it is a credit to the Israeli people that they were able to make the land productive once more. However you did leave out one critical reason why Israel was able to make the desert bloom while the Somalis could not, and at this moment can not, do the same. The people of Israel have benefited from a great deal of economic support from the United States and Europe. Such support is not afforded to Somalia, which only receives support in emergency food aid. Israel is also much wealthier than Somalia. The GNP of Somalia per capita is $131 US 1n 1993 while that of Israel is $13 920. When one has the money, it is not as difficult to alter one's environment so that it might support a larger population. Perhaps if Somalia received the same economic aid, then their GNP would rise to a level that they to could follow the example of Israel, but this aid is not forth coming. You might wish to mention that you left out that important piece of information out when you discussed overpopulation on Friday's programme.

You are also correct in stating that much of the debate about overpopulation has had racist undertones, at least in the past. There may even still be an element of that racism still among us; I've listened to racist radio programmes which describe the people of developing countries as a "tumour" which needs to be cut out in order for the "white race" to thrive. With speech such as that, it is no wonder people such as yourself and those in the developing nations are suspicious of those advocating a decline in births. Most of the current thoughts on the subject see overpopulation as a symptom of a larger problem, poverty. In many developing nations, families are large because children act as primary wage earners. Many children are needed so that a family can be supported. Another problem is the high infant mortality rate. Women have more children because they know many will die before their second birthday from diseases that have all but disappeared in the west. Finally, the status of women plays an important part in how many children will be born to a family. In developing countries, poor women have no access to education, marry sooner, and, thus, begin having children sooner.

Rather than addressing over population as the problem, we must begin to look at the real problem of poverty. A number of things should, in fact must, be done in order to right this problem. The west which has often exploited the developing nations to enrich themselves, must in the form of economic aid (with no strings attached) assist the developing nations to attain a higher standard of living. One thing that also can be done is to look at the status of women. By providing access to education (which often raises the marriage age) and access to family planning (which I know that you do not agree with), women will have fewer children. Fertility also decreases when women work and receive wages outside the home. With greater affluence, children will have less of a role in the labour market. Finally, the availability of pensions allows elder citizens to live without relying on children for support (thus, they have fewer children).

I doubt that you will agree with me. I only hope you will not dismiss what I said without first giving it some thought. Perhaps the problem of over population could best be shown through a true story. Easter Island was once covered by trees and had few other resources when it was first colonised. Indigenous to the Island were a few insect, two types of lizards, a few sea fish, and no mammals. The colonisers brought with them chickens, rats, and sweet potatoes (likely yams). The climate was to severe to grow most of the food they were used to, but the potatoes grew well and, along with the chickens, were their main diet. At first, only 20-50 people colonised the island. The population increased due to natural increase and some immigration which occurred for a few hundred years. The basic unit was the extended family which eventually formed into lineages and clans. They revered their ancestors, and the clan chiefs organised spiritual sites where the large Moui (statues) were erected on Ahu (alters) to venerate important ancestors. Eventually, 300 Ahu were created, holding between 1 and 12 Moui each. At one time, Easter Island could have been considered to be the most advanced Polynesian society. However, the way the people moved their statues provide clues as to why their society collapsed. By 1550, the population of the island acheived a maximum of 7000 people, but it soon began to decline. In order for the statues to be moved to their sites, the people cut down trees to act as rollers (the people provided the energy). As the island became less forested, the soil started to become degraded through erosion and salt water. Crop yields began to decrease. At this point, clan competition increased. More statues were built, more trees cut down, more soil degradation occurred. Though the soil would not support potatoes as it once did, the chickens were unaffected and became the primary food on the island. Rival clans would try to steal each other’s chickens, resulting in warfare. Finally, the last tree must have been cut. The people could not build their statues, could not build or heat their homes. Nor could they build boats to leave the island. They were, for better or worse, trapped on the island. Perhaps because of anger or as part of the clan warfare which was occurring, the statues were toppled. The population declined, the foundation of society shattered. Clan warfare increased for scarce resources. Slavery became common and there is evidence that cannibalism took place. Europeans in the 1700s saw a few toppled statues; all were toppled by the 1800s. The population was finally and definitively decimated by European disease and their enslavement. Today, there are only a handful of islanders who can trace their origin back to those people who created the greatest Polynesian civilisation, then destroyed it.

The moral of this tale is that, like Easter Island, the Earth is also an island, but on a larger scale. Though seemingly limitless, the resources of Earth are also finite. And like those on Easter Island, the Earth is the only home we have.

Any comments? I think that Ben deals with the issue of carrying capacity, but I have yet to see any response to it, as such.
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
Mr. Enyart replyed to my email today in regards to which highschools are teaching this curriculum.

Mr. Enyart was not able to spend the time researching specific highschools. He told me that his assumption of "Millions" came from his own experience and conversations with people over the years. He recalled that he himself had this question posed to him back in the sixties and that over the years several people confirmed to him in personal conversation that they had much the same thing.

I suppose I can respect his assumptions as he was not in formal debate. I would still be interested to know if those assumptions can be supported with hard facts.

Peace,
Pilgrim
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Pilgrimagain said:
Mr. Enyart replyed to my email today in regards to which highschools are teaching this curriculum.

Mr. Enyart was not able to spend the time researching specific highschools.

Translation: He hasn't the faintest idea which schools use this and which don't.
He told me that his assumption of "Millions" came from his own experience and conversations with people over the years.
Anecdotal evidence is very, very subjective. Bob's only in his early forties. Since, according to his website, he became a Christian in 1973, how many hundreds (thousands?) of people do you suppose Bob has discussed this topic with over the last 29 years?

He recalled that he himself had this question posed to him back in the sixties and that over the years several people confirmed to him in personal conversation that they had much the same thing.
Since, according to his website, he was born in 1959, Bob wouldn't have even been in gradeschool until 1965. So "in the sixties" comprised first through fifth grades for him. That's a pretty darn good memory. In addition, I'd like to see how he extrapolates conversations with "several people" into "millions" of students. :rolleyes:

I suppose I can respect his assumptions as he was not in formal debate.
Good for you, Pilgrim. To me it sounds like typical media puffery.

I would still be interested to know if those assumptions can be supported with hard facts.
So would many of us. But, as you found out, "hard facts" do not seem to be St. Bob the Broadcaster's strong point. :rolleyes:
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
He recalled that he himself had this question posed to him back in the sixties and that over the years several people confirmed to him in personal conversation that they had much the same thing.

I feel I need to correct myself....Mr. Enyart did not say "high"school in his reply. He simply said "school."

Oh yea, Zak, I am in agreement with your last post...I was just trying to practice a little more civility than I have in the past on that last post.

Peace,
Pilgrim
 
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firechyld

Guest
Population growth....

Population growth....

I thought this might interest some, although it doesn't really push the argument either way.

It does, however, give you a sense of perspective about the issue.

Clicky for world Population clock. Little window pops up. Watch the numbers tick. :)

firechyld
 

KurtPh

New member
We went over the issue of over-population a number of times on these forums. The last time, a poster by the moniker of KZ tried to take me to task for stating that there was a problem with overpopulation. You wouldn't believe the things he came up with. For example, he tried to make the claim that the Earth could support between 100 and 500 billion people. I really miss him. He made things really entertaining for a while.
 
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firechyld

Guest
Oh come on.... No-one has anything to say about the clock? Look at the clock, people!

firechyld (fan of the clock)
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
Funny thing about that clock...it's number is always getting bigger...there is no indication that people are dying as well.

Peace,
Pilgrim
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
The Census ticker is all guesswork based on mathematical constructs (growth models). No one has yet produced an accurate count of the earth's human population.

(Pilgrim, if you already know the rest, please forgive me for being needlessly didactic. - Z :))

Why does it only go up?
The graphic display has been set to show net change only, not individual births and deaths.

So, as long as the birth rate outstrips the death rate, the ticker goes up. If the death rate increases and gets closer to the birth rate, the ticker will still go up, but at a slower rate. The same thing will occur if the birth rate decreases.

Only when the death rate exceeds the birth rate will the ticker go down.
 
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