REPORT: Miracle Dynamics

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Pilgrimagain

Guest
The faith in and of itself, in all of those instances are not the cause but the motivation. It is the power of God that performes the miracle. Christ himself performed the miraculous when there was no faith around. Namely the ressurection. He fed the 5000 when there was no faith in it. He gave the fisherman a load of fish even though they doubted. He calmed the storm even though they were afraid because of lack of faith.

Faith is not the cause, but the motivation and the starting place. And in any case, in this day and age, our witness to faith is that even in the midest of the storm that does not abate, we still look to God.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by August
Knight wrote:
Cite one example that someone was turned away or became bitter BECAUSE OF a miracle.
Cite only one????

I could site hundreds!!!
Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. John 5:5
When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, “Do you want to be made well?” John 5:6
The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.” John 5:7
Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” John 5:8
And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath. John 5:9
The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.” John 5:10
He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ” John 5:11
Then they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” John 5:12
But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. John 5:13
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” John 5:14
The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. John 5:15
For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. John 5:16
How about....
And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. Acts 6:8
What does Stephen get for his efforts?
Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. Acts 6:9

Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” Acts 6:11

and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. ... Acts 7:58
Of course I am merely scratching the surface! There are literally hundreds more examples!!!
 

GraceInMe

Delicate Flower
Banned
A few quick questions,

Was the nation of Israel in belief or unbelief when God delivered them out of Egypt? Was Israel in belief or unbelief when God opened the Sea for them to walk on dry land? Did Peter tell the man at Gate Beautiful to believe, rise and walk or to just rise and walk.

Finally, to answer your question about one being bitter due to miracles. Pharaoh was quite bitter as well as Ahab. They even sought to kill the messenger sent to bring forth the miracle.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by GraceInMe
A few quick questions,

Was the nation of Israel in belief or unbelief when God delivered them out of Egypt? Was Israel in belief or unbelief when God opened the Sea for them to walk on dry land? Did Peter tell the man at Gate Beautiful to believe, rise and walk or to just rise and walk.

Finally, to answer your question about one being bitter due to miracles. Pharaoh was quite bitter as well as Ahab. They even sought to kill the messenger sent to bring forth the miracle.
Your just a big party pooper. ;)
 

August

New member
Knight,
Your first example states that the dispute was not over performing the miracle as such, but because he violated the sabbath.
That is a little like the faith healers today who are imprisoned, not because they heal, but because they practice medicine without a license.
The second example says that they persecuted Stephen because of what he said - that he blasphemed.
I will certainly agree that many theologians of the day were envious, jealous, and willing to do anything to protect their egos, just as there many today who will villify those that pray for miracles and experience them. But those people don't become that way BECAUSE of miracles, but in spite of them. I will never agree that miracles foster unbelief, or that Jesus hurt his own ministry by performing them.

Pilgrim,
I was just referring to what Jesus said. You don't have to accept it, but I do. He's MY MAN!
 

August

New member
GraceInMe wrote:
>Was the nation of Israel in belief or unbelief when God delivered them out of
Egypt? Was Israel in belief or unbelief when God opened the Sea for them to
walk on dry land?

It didn't take the whole nation of Israel. It just took Moses's faith.
Of course, later he got some help. Read what the Book of Hebrews says about this - it was done by faith. You seem to be debating against the author of that book.

>Did Peter tell the man at Gate Beautiful to believe, rise and
walk or to just rise and walk.

No, and Jesus as a rule didn't tell people to believe before he healed them. But in many cases, he did tell them that their faith was instrumental. The man that Peter healed may, or may not, have had faith; but I'm sure that Peter did.
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
Originally posted by August
Pilgrim,
I was just referring to what Jesus said. You don't have to accept it, but I do. He's MY MAN!

If he's your man, as he is mine, then put a little more thought into what he says and does, it's important. And remember, Christ dies to take away your sins, not your mind.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by August
Knight,
Your first example states that the dispute was not over performing the miracle as such, but because he violated the sabbath.
That is a little like the faith healers today who are imprisoned, not because they heal, but because they practice medicine without a license.
The second example says that they persecuted Stephen because of what he said - that he blasphemed.
I will certainly agree that many theologians of the day were envious, jealous, and willing to do anything to protect their egos, just as there many today who will villify those that pray for miracles and experience them. But those people don't become that way BECAUSE of miracles, but in spite of them. I will never agree that miracles foster unbelief, or that Jesus hurt his own ministry by performing them.
August nothing of what you say above helps your point.

Think of it this way....

Regardless of WHY people become bitter when confronted with miracles... the fact is that MOST PEOPLE DO become bitter when confronted with miracles. Their motivation is irrelevant. It's results that we are looking at.

I have read a list of EVERY SINGLE miracle in the Bible and the effect that resulted from those miracles. The evidence is amazing. A HUGE percentage of ALL the miracles in the Bible resulted negatively.

That is not a criticism of God and His miracles, yet a criticism of man and how wicked man is.

It also demonstrates how the Bible is an accurate account of history, after all... if you were gonna make this stuff up why include the negative reaction of a miraculous event?
 
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Pilgrimagain

Guest
Darn you knight, I had just cut out Archie for my avatar! I was holding off to the actual week of the contest!!!!!!!

Stick to your block headed friend Charlie Brown! Good Grief!

Man, now I have to go back and come up with something original again.

By the way, I am a true Archie fan. I am 32 years old and still have a subscription to Laugh Digest, Archie and Jughead, And Archie Double Digest!
 

August

New member
Knight wrote:
>Regardless of WHY people become bitter when confronted with miracles... the fact is that
MOST PEOPLE DO become bitter when confronted with miracles. Their motivation is
irrelevant.<

It may irrelevant to you, but not to me. IMHO, the psychological aspect is essential, because it pertains to the present day reaction against miracles. In fact, I think we all know in our hearts that it is the basis of this entire argument. It was only the people who had something to lose by Jesus's ministry that reacted against him, his teachings, and his works.
Just as it is today. Just think about it. Who stands to lose the most from God's miracles?

> I have read a list of EVERY SINGLE miracle in the Bible and the effect that resulted from
those miracles. The evidence is amazing. A HUGE percentage of ALL the miracles in the
Bible resulted negatively.<

You and your references are free to interpret it that way, if you want. Reasoning the same way, you could argue that Jesus's teachings fostered unbelief, because of the negative reaction to them. Paul's preaching got a lot of negative reaction, too.

>That is not a criticism of God and His miracles,<

Sure it is. You're saying that God deliberately did something that hurt his own cause. If you said the same thing about anyone else, it would imply that he was stupid.

>yet a criticism of man and how wicked man
is.<

That is certainly a sweeping statement, if by "man" you mean all people.
In any case, it is not our place to judge the wickedness of others.
 

smilax

New member
Sounds a lot like the argument from Disappointment with God by Philip Yancey.

God still performs a lot of miracles today, perhaps the greatest of which is salvation.
 

Patroclus

BANNED
Banned
Words, words, words

Words, words, words

First of all, I think we are using different definitions of the same words here.

Foster: Are we saying that without the miracles the people would believe, thereby saying that the miracles actually bring about the disbelief in people. Or, are we saying that miracles are the vehicle by which those who already would not believe are reinforced by humanly unacceptable confrontation with the divine?

If we are working with the first of the two assumptions, I cannot say that I agree with the article one bit. I doubt that Pharaoh would believe even without the miracles. I doubt that the Pharisees would have believed in Jesus without the miracles.

August, I see your point about the title. However, consider the idea of literary device. It is not uncommon for an author to use negative terms to provoke shock in order to gain a wider readership. Look at newspaper headlines. I am in the Newspaper business, I know how that works. The headline or title of a document should draw people in. The title of a work does not necessarily prove the premise.

Personally, I think "foster" is an unethical word to use (literary device considered) because it is not about the process, but about the reaction. For everything that God does on earth there are two reactions, belief or disbelief. The word has too many negative connotations. Obviously Jesus was not wrong for performing miracles.

Secondly, I think it is a bad hermeneutic to say that al the miracles performed were to answer a specific sociological issue (or issues). We know that Jesus performed many miracles besides the ones that are specifically recorded in the gospels. To say that compassion necessarily has ulterior sociological motives is unfair to God (in my opinion). While people will not always believe in miracles, nor will believe them when they happen, the point is still that miracles help to reveal Jesus Christ. I am an example of that. I was healed of a disease that should have killed me, there was nothing the doctors could have done to prevent it. I was not healed by a man of God (for what is man?) but by the power of the Holy Spirit. I can believe in miracles because my life today is the result of one such miracle just over eleven years ago. I defy anybody to deny that and make me believe him or her.

Here is a b-mail to one of the boardies at another message board.

You have some good points, but I wonder why you cannot accept that the Lord saved me from death in an instant. Surely he forgave me of my sins, something that no amount of medicine could accomplish. In my opinion that is ever so much more miraculous. But, again, we are dealing with the physical realm.

By memory, the last miracle affecting physical time and space in the Bible is where Phillip is taken up by the Spirit and transplanted else. Or, it could have been the blindness in Paul's eyes. Or maybe it was the casting out of demons from Lydia. At any rate, since I cannot recall the exact chronology, the New Testament stops talking about miracles in Acts, yes, but that is not sufficient evidence that God stopped performing miracles. We also do not see more miracles in the Bible because Acts is the last historical account of the Bible. The emphasis changed dramatically in the book of Acts towards the ministry of Paul. We know from Paul's own writing that Paul was not a charismatic man, he admits it freely. So, it stands to reason that the writer of Acts (presumably Luke) would not go into the details of his one-on-one personal ministerial encounters. The most important thing to Luke is that Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles, as opposed to the Jews. This is very important in the very last verse of the book of Acts. This also, stylistically completes two chiasms, one started in the beginning of Luke and another starting in the beginning of Acts. We also know that sections of his garments were given to people that they may be healed. I am not looking for a further debate with you on this issue, but I am explaining to you how it seems very reasonable that God can and does do personal miracles in the lives of people including, raising of the dead and keeping me from death.

Now, your question of why we are less likely to believe that God would grow a limb back is actually a pretty simple one to answer. The level of absurdity inherent in the desired result, is inversely proportional to the faith that most people will have that God will do it. Do limbs grow back very often? No. Do people recover from the flu often? Yes.

As to why God doesn't split the sea or make axe-heads float anymore, I really have no idea. I don't know if it really is all that important. However, there is a part of me that believes that no matter how bizarre the request, if it really is in the name of Christ that we ask for it, for the furthering of His kingdom, there is a good chance that He would do it if we ask. Remember that Jesus said that if we had the right faith, we could tell mountains to move. However, I do not view faith like the Holiness movement views faith.

In my opinion, faith is risky business. In the USA, faith is not risky at all because we do not suffer true persecution. But faith, real faith is what compels men to forsake everything that would be security to them (wealth, possessions, jobs, families) for the cause of Christ. A person with that kind of faith does not have ulterior motives that would corrupt faith.


-Rob
 
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Ages

New member
If people's reaction to God preforming miracles is hostile, is this a bad thing? Exposing as it does an unbelief that they already posess.
Most people don't seem to even realize that miracles aren't vindication of God's good will, only that the supernatural is in action around you. Our base-stone, our absolute, must always be scripture.
God is doing the same things now,He did in the book of Acts, and for the same reasons. It will offend people, Oh well. Let's face facts, there are only two sides to the issue,God's, and the worlds. It's a matter of which side you choose to place yourself.
Patroclus you wrote,>>>>>In my opinion, faith is risky business. In the USA, faith is not risky at
all because we do not suffer true persecution. But faith, real faith is
what compels men to forsake everything that would be security to
them (wealth, possessions, jobs, families) for the cause of Christ. A
person with that kind of faith does not have ulterior motives that
would corrupt faith.<<<<<<<One wonders at your definition of "real persecution". What is harder, when there are clear lines drawn, to serve Christ or die, or to become a religious and social outcast, because what you believe isn't politicaly correct, in a religious nation? People hate bible believers for the same reasons they hate miracles, it exposes their unbelief.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
OK OK OK I think I Just figured out why Benny Hinn Doesn't have his healing services at the hospital. See if he heals people of having one leg longer than the other instead of healing someone who's leg was crushed in a car crash the miracle is easy to deny.this way he doesn't shove THE TRUTH in anybodys face.

HEY KNIGHT!!! DID I GET IT RIGHT.... DO I WIN THE PRIZE??
 

Paradõsis

New member
Thoughts?

No. That is, there was no thought behind this thread (or the first post anyway). Unless one is assuming that the Bible is the only record of Christianity that one can use to know about the early Church. But that'd be just as thoughtless as... um... saying that miracles passed away in the time of the apostles :eek:
 

Freak

New member
Miracles foster belief!!!!

Due to Christ's greatest miracle--raising from the dead--we find justification--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Re: Study........ not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:

Re: Study........ not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:

Originally posted by Explosived

1 Corinthians 1:22
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Did you miss the next verse?

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"
-1 Corinthians 1:23

Or how about:
[Jesus]"'A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.'[/Jesus] And He left them and departed."
 
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