Real Science Radio: Oxford Prof: Central Darwinian Assumptions Disproved

lucaspa

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Oxford Prof: Central Darwinian Assumptions Disproved

http://biophilosophy.ca/Teaching/6740papers/Noble2013.pdf "that all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved."

What you need to do is go to the original article. Unfortunately, my library no longer carries the electronic version of the journal. But you can access the Abstract here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25568446

Or you can find the 2013 paper:
http://biophilosophy.ca/Teaching/6740papers/Noble2013.pdf

"Experimental results in epigenetics and related fields of biological research show that the Modern Synthesis (neo-Darwinist) theory of evolution requires either extension or replacement. This article examines the conceptual framework of neo-Darwinism, including the concepts of 'gene', 'selfish', 'code', 'program', 'blueprint', 'book of life', 'replicator' and 'vehicle'. This form of representation is a barrier to extending or replacing existing theory as it confuses conceptual and empirical matters. These need to be clearly distinguished. In the case of the central concept of 'gene', the definition has moved all the way from describing a necessary cause (defined in terms of the inheritable phenotype itself) to an empirically testable hypothesis (in terms of causation by DNA sequences). Neo-Darwinism also privileges 'genes' in causation, whereas in multi-way networks of interactions there can be no privileged cause. An alternative conceptual framework is proposed that avoids these problems, and which is more favourable to an integrated systems view of evolution."

From the 2013 paper:

"The ‘Modern Synthesis’ (Neo-Darwinism) is a mid-20th century gene-centric view of evolution, based on random mutations accumulating to produce gradual change through natural selection. Any role of physiological function in influencing genetic inheritance was excluded. The organism became a mere carrier of the real objects of selection, its genes. We now know that genetic change is far from random and often not gradual. Molecular genetics and genome sequencing have deconstructed this unnecessarily restrictive view of evolution in a way that reintroduces physiological function and interactions with the environment as factors influencing the speed and nature of inherited change. Acquired characteristics can be inherited, and in a few but growing number of cases that inheritance has now been shown to be robust for many generations. The 21st century can look forward to a new synthesis that will reintegrate physiology with evolutionary biology."

What you have to notice first is that creationists are pulling their normal tactic: looking at a problem of some aspect of evolution and saying all of evolution is in trouble.

You can readily see that Dr. Noble is not saying "darwinism is disproved". Look at the last line "more favourable to an integrated systems view of evolution" or "The 21st century can look forward to a new synthesis that will reintegrate physiology with evolutionary biology." So, evolution is still intact.

Dr. Noble wants to modify specifically the Modern Synthesis: "the Modern Synthesis (neo-Darwinist)"

Over the decades, many people have attacked Neo-Darwinism. Mostly these are attacks on a strawman, because they take a very narrow view of what Neo-Darwinism is. This looks to be the same.

We can see the strawman in the 2013 paper:
"The ‘Modern Synthesis’ (Neo-Darwinism) is a mid-20th century gene-centric view of evolution, based on random mutations accumulating to produce gradual change through natural selection. Any role of physiological function in influencing genetic inheritance was excluded. The organism became a mere carrier of the real objects of selection, its genes."

That's wrong on several counts, in particular that "the real objects of selection, its genes." No. The object of selection was always the individual organism. Strawman.

The strawman about Neo-Darwinism here is that small changes in a single gene will make small changes in phenotype. What we know now is that most traits are polygenic. What is more, many traits are the result of networks of genes. In addition, some changes to how genes are expressed (epigenetics) can be passed down through several generations, though not permanently. Dr. Noble states this as "Acquired characteristics can be inherited, and in a few but growing number of cases that inheritance has now been shown to be robust for many generations"

However, the Modern Synthesis is quite a bit more flexible than the strawman. Several attempts in the past have been made to "unseat" the Modern Synthesis: punctuated equilibrium, the discovery of Hox genes, and evo-devo to name 3. It's still around for Dr. Noble to make his run at it.

It appears that Dr. Noble is a physiologist who thinks the Modern Synthesis left physiology out of evolution. He wants physiology back.

But the real bottom line for this forum is that Dr. Noble is NOT challenging any of the 5 basic theories of evolution. His "attack" is not at Darwin, but rather on specifically how evolution happens. As such, it is no comfort at all to creationists -- unless, of course, they commit false witness about it. Which is what they appear to be doing. Unfortunately for them, they linked the paper so we can readily check and prove the false witness.
 

lucaspa

Member
The Bible says "six days." It is entirely incompatible with your evolutionism. Pick a side instead of trying to please everyone except those who hold to God's word.
The Bible also says a single day ("beyom") in Genesis 2:4. What takes 4 days in Genesis 1 takes only a single day in Genesis 2:4. So, Stripe, which part of "God's word" do you hold to? 6 days? or a single day?

Also, please tell us why you hold to "God's word" instead of God. Scripture is supposed to be an aid to help us find God, not a substitute. Also please tell us why you think God has only a single "word". Christian thought has always been that God has "2 books". Christian thought has also emphasized that we get communication from God through the Holy Spirit. Why do you only look at scripture?

What the contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 tells us, Stripe, is that we should NOT be reading either literally. Genesis 1-3 is NOT trying to teach us how God created, but theology. God left us His Creation to tell us how He created. Why do you refuse to listen to God, Stripe?

BTW, what does "evolutionism" mean to you? I am curious, because I have no idea what it means.
 

lucaspa

Member
[T]he expression does become a tautology if one uses the most widely accepted definition of "fitness" in modern biology, namely reproductive success itself (rather than any set of characters conducive to this reproductive success). This reasoning is sometimes used to claim that Darwin's entire theory of evolution by natural selection is fundamentally tautological, and therefore devoid of any explanatory power.​


But that is NOT the definition of "fitness" in modern biology. So you have made a strawman argument.

Natural selection alters the frequency of the presence of genes in a population. Now this is eminently testable. Along with neo-Darwinism and Mendelian genetics came a definition of fitness. Fitness is the ratio of the progeny actually produced to the progeny expected from Mendelian inheritance. (Understanding Evolution, pp. 153-154.)

No tautology there. What you also need to have is the Hardy-Weinberg principle. This basically states that the frequency of a gene/trait will remain constant over generations.

We can also get a selection coefficient that measures the selective advantage, or disadvantage. S = 1.0 - fitness.

Therefore the rest of the explanation is not needed. All we need to do for testability is compare gene frequencies/traits over several generations and compare those frequencies to what we expect from Mendelian inheritance. "Survival" doesn't enter into the discussion at all.​
 

lucaspa

Member
* Darwinism Disproved: A British biology professor, Oxford University's Dr. Denis Noble, wrote in the journal Experimental Physiology, "that all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved." RSR's Bob Enyart and Fred Williams present entertaining and insightful nuggets of wisdom from the current edition of their favorite publication which you can subscribe to at creation.com/creation-magazine.

I've been reading the paper they cite: http://biophilosophy.ca/Teaching/6740papers/Noble2013.pdf

The title says "Darwinism Disproved". But the paper actually says Darwin was right

"Darwin was far from being a Neo-Darwinist (Dover, 2000; Midgley, 2010), so I think it would be better to drop his name for that idea. As Mayr (1964) points out, there are as many as 12
references to the inheritance of acquired characteristics in The Origin of Species (Darwin, 1859) and in the first edition he explicitly states ‘I am convinced that natural selection has been the main, but not the exclusive means of modification’, a statement he reiterated with increased force in the 1872, 6th edition. In some respects, my article returns to a more nuanced, less dogmatic view of evolutionary theory (see also Muller, 2007; Mesoudi ¨ et al. 2013), which is much more in keeping with the spirit of Darwin’s own ideas than is the Neo-Darwinist view."

"we move back towards a more genuinely ‘Darwinian’ viewpoint"

So, where does Dr. Noble say Darwinism is disproved?

Tsk tsk. How do Enyart and Williams expect to support God by violating the 9th Commandment?
 

Stripe

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The Bible also says a single day ("beyom") in Genesis 2:4.
Nope. "It says in the day when..." It is clearly a reference to a period of time, that period being the one described in chapter 1.

What takes 4 days in Genesis 1 takes only a single day in Genesis 2:4.
Nope.

Looking back and writing about the creation week does not require us to use all the same words in the same ways.

Also, please tell us why you hold to "God's word" instead of God.

Also please tell us why you think God has only a single "word". Christian thought has always been that God has "2 books". Christian thought has also emphasized that we get communication from God through the Holy Spirit. Why do you only look at scripture?
Evolutionists love false dichotomies.

Scripture is supposed to be an aid to help us find God
Nope. It's God's account of history.

What the contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 tells us, Stripe, is that we should NOT be reading either literally. Genesis 1-3 is NOT trying to teach us how God created, but theology. God left us His Creation to tell us how He created. Why do you refuse to listen to God, Stripe?
Begging the question is another logical fallacy.

BTW, what does "evolutionism" mean to you? I am curious, because I have no idea what it means.
:mock: evolutionists.
 

Lighthouse

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The Bible also says a single day ("beyom") in Genesis 2:4. What takes 4 days in Genesis 1 takes only a single day in Genesis 2:4. So, Stripe, which part of "God's word" do you hold to? 6 days? or a single day?
Just like the word "day" in English the word "יוֹם" has several meanings. Click on the link and find out for yourself.

"In the day" does not reference a 24 hour period. Nor does it refer to the time of the day that is not night.

Nope. "It says in the day when..." It is clearly a reference to a period of time, that period being the one described in chapter 1.

Nope.

Looking back and writing about the creation week does not require us to use all the same words in the same ways.

Evolutionists love false dichotomies.

Nope. It's God's account of history.

Begging the question is another logical fallacy.


:mock: evolutionists.
Yup.
 
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