Real Science Friday: Best Cell Biology DVD Ever Made!

[Stripe]

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence) No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Scientists can make things that are a little bit like proteins in a lab. What is it that I do not want to be true? :idunno:

That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

And yet none of the ones synthesised are proteins.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

Do you?

"Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis..."

Wiki.​

 

[One Eyed Jack]

None at all. But it does take a number of amino acids. A little phosphoric acid doesn't hurt, either.

Aren't proteins assembled inside of living cells by molecular machinery? I thought this was what the 150 proteins were referring to. I didn't take it to mean the ingredients.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence)
No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Scientists can make things that are a little bit like proteins in a lab.

And nature can make things that are proteins, in abiotic ways.

What is it that I do not want to be true?

God's creation, for one.

Barbarian observes:
That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

And yet none of the ones synthesised are proteins.

But those formed on hot volcanic rocks are. And that's all it takes.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

Do you?

I'm going to take that as a "No, I'm scared to see what is known about it." If you do want to learn how it works, let me know.

Stipe stumbles a bit:

"Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis..."

Let's take a look...

Nature: 266, 78 - 80 (03 March 1977)
Synthesis of phospholipids and membranes in prebiotic conditions

It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

Stipe, when God says the earth brought forth living things, why is it so hard for you to believe Him?



W. R. HARGREAVES, S. J. MULVIHILL & D. W. DEAMER

Department of Zoology, University of California, Davis, California 95616

IT is generally agreed that stable membranes were prerequisite to the assembly of the earliest self-replicating systems1–4. Phospholipids, which are ubiquitous in biological membranes and which self-assemble in aqueous environments into stable lipid bilayers and vesicles4, are obvious candidates for prebiotic membrane components. We report here the abiotic synthesis of various lipids, including membranogenic phospholipids.

 

[The Barbarian]

Aren't proteins assembled inside of living cells by molecular machinery?

Until recently, people thought so. Then they found short proteins in the Murchison meteorite, and it became clear that peptide bonds can form in the absence of all that stuff.

I thought this was what the 150 proteins were referring to. I didn't take it to mean the ingredients.

You're right. But in modern organisms, the process is very tightly controlled by a variety of means. Less so in more primitive organisms like bacteria, and apparently a lot simpler in the first living things.

 

[Stripe]

(Barbarian reminds Stipe of the evidence) No, I don't think it's dementia. You just tend to forget things you don't want to be true.

Barbarian observes:That's what they are proteinoids or peptides are just short proteins. And the line between them is fuzzy. A number of biological proteins are technically peptides.

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

I'm going to take that as a "No, I'm scared to see what is known about it." If you do want to learn how it works, let me know.

It is dementia. :doh:

You've said all this, remember? :kook:

But those formed on hot volcanic rocks are. And that's all it takes.

Proteinoids or peptides formed on "hot volcanic rocks" are proteins? Is that what you're claiming now?

Stipe stumbles a bit: Let's take a look...It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

So when you said, "Proteins don't produce phospholipids", you were wrong, right? That was an overstatement, right?

Stipe, when God says the earth brought forth living things, why is it so hard for you to believe Him?

Suddenly, when it suits them, the bible is a scientific text for evolutionists.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that the precursors of cell membranes are produced abiotically)
Nope. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Want to learn about it?

(Stipe dodges the question)

I'm going to take that as a "No, I'm scared to see what is known about it." If you do want to learn how it works, let me know.

It is dementia.

You've got denial, probably not dementia.

Barbarian observes:
But those formed on hot volcanic rocks are. And that's all it takes.

Proteinoids or peptides formed on "hot volcanic rocks" are proteins?

Yep. Peptides or proteinoids are just short proteins.

Is that what you're claiming now?

Yep.

The distinction between proteins and peptides is their size. Peptides are in a sense small proteins, having molecular weights less than 10,000.
http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/VirtTxtJml/proteins.htm

They were able to form protein-like chains from a mixture of 18 common amino acids at only 70°C in the presence of phosphoric acid, and dubbed these protein-like chains proteinoids. Fox later found proteinoids similar to those he had created in his laboratory in lava and cinders from Hawaiian volcanic vents and determined that the amino acids present polymerized due to the heat of escaping gases and lava. Other catalysts have since been found; one of them, amidinium carbodiimide, is formed in primitive Earth experiments and is effective in dilute aqueous solutions.

When present in certain concentrations in aqueous solutions, proteinoids form small structures called microspheres or protocells. This is because some of the amino acids incorporated into proteinoid chains are more hydrophobic than others, and so proteinoids cluster together like droplets of oil in water. Many argue that these are not themselves alive in the traditional sense, but these structures exhibit many of the characteristics of cells accepted as living cells:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteinoid

(Stipe stumbles a bit: )

Barbarian suggests:
Let's take a look...It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

So when you said, "Proteins don't produce phospholipids", you were wrong, right?

No. Proteins don't produce phospholipids. Lipids and phosphate ions produce phospholipids. No amino acids in phospholipids.

Barbarian asks:
Stipe, when God says the earth brought forth living things, why is it so hard for you to believe Him?

(Stipe dodges)

Suddenly, when it suits them, the bible is a scientific text for evolutionists.

Nope. Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

 

[Stripe]

:kook:

Proteins don't produce phospholipids

I see. So when Wiki says "Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis...", you're taking some sort of pedantic route to avoid the fact that proteins are involved in the synthesis of phospholipids, right?

Let's take a look...It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

That's a nice story, Barbarian. :chuckle:

So you have so protein-like clusters forming in hydrothermal vents. Where is the evidence that these things that look like proteins turned into actual proteins and started evolving?

Guaranteed that once the temperature decreases, these "precursors to life" quickly break down, right?

Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.​

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that proteins don't make phospholipids)

I see. So when Wiki says "Phospholipid synthesis occurs in the cytosol adjacent to ER membrane that is studded with proteins that act in synthesis...", you're taking some sort of pedantic route to avoid the fact that proteins are involved in the synthesis of phospholipids, right?

If your argument is that phosopholipids are made in cells, and cells are partially made of proteins, I would think you'd be the pedant in this case. Phosphate ions and lipids make phospholipids. And they don't need proteins at all to be produced.

(Barbarian cites research demonstrating the abiotic production of phospholipids)

It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.

That's a nice story, Barbarian.

It has the virtue of being verified by research.

So you have so protein-like clusters forming in hydrothermal vents.

No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

Where is the evidence that these things that look like proteins turned into actual proteins

As you just learned, they are short proteins.

Guaranteed that once the temperature decreases, these "precursors to life" quickly break down, right?

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

Barbarian, regarding Stipe's unwillingness to accept that life was brought forth by the earth:
Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

 

[Stripe]

(Barbarian cites research demonstrating the abiotic production of phospholipids)It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.It has been demonstrated that the molecules can form spontaneously in conditions identical to that of hydrothermal vents as well. So it's not surprising that our cells are bounded by phospholipid membranes. The first step in the development of cells would have to be the simplest, or at least very simple. And that's what we see.Barbarian, regarding Stipe's unwillingness to accept that life was brought forth by the earth:Just asking why you don't accept what God has to say about it.

:kook:

If your argument is that phosopholipids are made in cells, and cells are partially made of proteins, I would think you'd be the pedant in this case. Phosphate ions and lipids make phospholipids. And they don't need proteins at all to be produced.

"My" argument? I'm just asking what you think of this Wiki quote. It says that proteins act in phospholipid synthesis. :idunno:

So it seems to me, if you want to make a cell, you need proteins that can synthesise phospholipids. Right?

It has the virtue of being verified by research.

You overstate your case again. The fact that molecules can form in hydrothermal vents is not evidence that this is how all cells started out. That's just a story you've invented.

No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

I see. Well, we're looking for how proteins form. So I guess we can just ignore your little tangent.

How is it that you think proteins formed from rocks and water?

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

:dizzy: You just got finished saying proteins don't form on hydrothermal vents.

Please try to be more clear. :thumb:

 

[The Barbarian]

So it seems to me, if you want to make a cell, you need proteins that can synthesise phospholipids. Right?

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Barbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:
It has the virtue of being verified by research.

You overstate your case again. The fact that molecules can form in hydrothermal vents is not evidence that this is how all cells started out.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

Barbarian observes:
No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

I see. Well, we're looking for how proteins form.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

So I guess we can just ignore your little tangent.

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

How is it that you think proteins formed from rocks and water?

Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth. The Murchison meteorite was found to contain abiotic amino acids, including some peptide polymers, as well as some with an excess of L-forms.

It has since been shown that proteins can form on hot volcanic rocks.

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

You just got finished saying proteins don't form on hydrothermal vents.

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

 

[Stripe]

Barbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:It has the virtue of being verified by research.Barbarian observes:No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

:kook:

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Try responding to the question. If you want to make a cell you need proteins to make prospholipids, right?

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

A cell uses proteins to make prospholipids.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

Those are peptides. Protein-like and similar, but smaller and not proteins. We need proteins.

And you also reckon phospholipids form in the same place. Are you saying phospholipids are proteins now? Or do they really both form together on hot volcanic rocks?

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

Great! And these formations can reproduce, can they?

Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth.

In the laboratory under carefully managed circumstances. And we're trying to figure out what you're saying about proteins and phospholipids on hot volcanic rocks. Stick to one story at a time, please. You'll be so much easier to understand then. :thumb:

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

So you have some protein-like clusters forming in hydrothermal vents.

No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

So now you're saying proteins form on hot volcanic rocks and they are called prospholipids, right?

 

[jeffblue101]

One doesn't depend on the other. For example, if God just poofed the first living things into existence (as Darwin suggested) it would be all the same to evolutionary theory.

Evolutionary theory doesn't say how life began. It assumes living things and describes how they change.

Your unbelievable Barbarian, your dishonesty knows no bounds. Have all these years of lying for Darwin destroyed any remaining remnant of intellectual integrity that you may had in the past. It is a fact that Darwin did not accept God creating the first life form, he only wrote that because he caved into political pressure.

secondly, evolutionary theory(whatever definition you want, since I know evolutionists will equivocate when given the chance.) may not deal with the the origin of life but the rulling paradigm amogsnt the majority of evolutionists is that such an explanation should be excluded as "unscientific" through philosophical fiat(methodical naturalism) , therefore making a naturalistic explanation the only "scientific" explanation. As such a naturalistic explanation is a necessary precursor to neo-darwinism.

 

[Flipper]

I think it's a bit rich of Bob Enyart to accuse Denver museum of misrepresentation when presumably he agreed to post the image that graces the original post on this thread.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone (atheist or otherwise) claim that Miller created life in a test tube. However, it's interesting evidence in favor of abiogenesis when it can be shown that the raw materials required in the form of complex organic chemicals are a spontaneous byproduct of reactions that occur under relatively simple conditions.

 

[The Barbarian]

So it seems to me, if you want to make a cell, you need proteins that can synthesise phospholipids. Right?

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Barbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:
It has the virtue of being verified by research.

You overstate your case again. The fact that molecules can form in hydrothermal vents is not evidence that this is how all cells started out.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

Barbarian observes:
No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.

I see. Well, we're looking for how proteins form.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

So I guess we can just ignore your little tangent.

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

How is it that you think proteins formed from rocks and water?

Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth. The Murchison meteorite was found to contain abiotic amino acids, including some peptide polymers, as well as some with an excess of L-forms.

It has since been shown that proteins can form on hot volcanic rocks.

Nope. But bacteria gobble them up. If the area was sterile, they'd be quite stable. Proteins are, unless acted upon by living things.

You just got finished saying proteins don't form on hydrothermal vents.

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
One doesn't depend on the other. For example, if God just poofed the first living things into existence (as Darwin suggested) it would be all the same to evolutionary theory.

Evolutionary theory doesn't say how life began. It assumes living things and describes how they change.

Your unbelievable Barbarian, your dishonesty knows no bounds.

Coming from you, that's kind of a compliment. Given your reputation, I'd be concerned if you said I was honest.

Have all these years of lying for Darwin destroyed any remaining remnant of intellectual integrity that you may had in the past. It is a fact that Darwin did not accept God creating the first life form, he only wrote that because he caved into political pressure.

Sorry, that story won't fly. He changed his opinion later, after he had become an agnostic, but that's not how it was when the book was published. You know that; I pointed it out to you.

Darwin was quite aware of the stir his book was going to cause, and you're trying to argue that he added his view about God in a later edition, because the reception wasn't good? The book was a great hit, well received by scientists, and went into mutiple printings. C'mon, Jeff.

secondly, evolutionary theory(whatever definition you want, since I know evolutionists will equivocate when given the chance.) may not deal with the the origin of life...

But being the dishonest person you are, you're going to try to argue it is, anyway.

but the rulling paradigm amogsnt the majority of evolutionists is that such an explanation should be excluded as "unscientific" through philosophical fiat(methodical naturalism) , therefore making a naturalistic explanation the only "scientific" explanation.

The ruling paradigm amongst the majority of "evolutionists" is that water is necessary for life, but that's not in the theory, either. C'mon, Jeff; do you really think you're that clever? Do you think everyone else is that dumb?

As Darwin's theory demonstrates, it's consistent with God poofing the first organisms into being. However, God is not consistent with that; He says the earth brought forth living things. So does abiogenesis.

Let God be God, Jeff.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.

Try responding to the question. If you want to make a cell you need proteins to make prospholipids, right?

Nope. They can form without any proteins at all. I showed you research verifying it.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

A cell uses proteins to make prospholipids.

The point is that phospholipids (note the spelling) can form in the absence of proteins.

One way is on hot volcanic rocks.

Those are peptides. Protein-like and similar, but smaller and not proteins.

You've been misled on that.

The size boundaries which distinguish peptides, polypeptides, and proteins are arbitrary. Long peptides such as amyloid beta can be considered proteins, whereas small proteins such as insulin can be considered peptides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide

And you also reckon phospholipids form in the same place. Are you saying phospholipids are proteins now?

(Barbarian checks) Nope. Never suggested it.

Barbarian observes:
You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

Great! And these formations can reproduce, can they?

They get larger as they incorporate more molecules. When they get to a certain size, they split into more than one. Some proteins also form vesicles like that, which also split if they grow too large.

Barbarian observes:
Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth.

In the laboratory under carefully managed circumstances.

As close as they could get to the conditions on the early Earth, yes.

And we're trying to figure out what you're saying about proteins and phospholipids on hot volcanic rocks.

It's a bit technical for you, I think. Just remember that both can form abiotically.

Barbarian observes:
No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions. (themal vents)

So now you're saying proteins form on hot volcanic rocks and they are called prospholipids, right?

:chuckle:

I guess if you can read the Bible to say that the firmament is the crust of the Earth, then it's not surprising that you'd get that from what I said.

 

[Stripe]

:kook:

Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.Barbarian observes:No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions.One way is on hot volcanic rocks.Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earth. The Murchison meteorite was found to contain abiotic amino acids, including some peptide polymers, as well as some with an excess of L-forms.It has since been shown that proteins can form on hot volcanic rocks.It has the virtue of being verified by research.Barbarian observes:Nope. Turns out, phospholipids can form without proteins.One way is on hot volcanic rocks.(Barbarian checks) Nope. Never suggested it.Barbarian observes:Miller-Urey showed that amino acids can form in the chemical conditions of the oceans on the early earthBarbarian on Nature article on abiotic phospholipids:Barbarian observes:No, but phospholipids can form in those conditions. (themal vents).

Don't think so. Can you show me that?

I have no idea what you're saying. :dizzy:

You're talking proteins, phospholipids and peptides. One or more of those you reckon can form on hot volcanic rocks. Which is it?

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.

Well, no. To have a cell you need a reproducing organism. If you have a cell membrane floating around you don't have a cell. Just because we can find calcium floating around, doesn't mean we have a chicken egg.

You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.Barbarian observes: You asked how the first cells could form. Phospholipids are the monomers that make up cell membranes. And they can be produced abiotically, and they spontaneously form enclosed vesicles.

You can form something that kind of resembles the shell, but not really. Now you just need the white and the yolk.

Nope. They can form without any proteins at all. I showed you research verifying it.

And yet, in a cell, they require proteins.

It just means that cell membranes could form without proteins.The point is that phospholipids (note the spelling) can form in the absence of proteins.

Not in a cell.

You've been misled on that.

It's what you said. :idunno:

The distinction between proteins and peptides is their size. Peptides are in a sense small proteins, having molecular weights less than 10,000. http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/facult...l/proteins.htm

There seems to be a way to go before you can make proteins for cells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide

You need to talk specifics in this case rather than taking a few exceptions and thinking they are the rule.

They get larger as they incorporate more molecules. When they get to a certain size, they split into more than one. Some proteins also form vesicles like that, which also split if they grow too large.

Great! :thumb:

As close as they could get to the conditions on the early Earth, yes.

:AMR:

1. How difficult could it be if the knew?
2. How did they know?

It's a bit technical for you, I think.

Perhaps you're just not explaining yourself with any clarity. :idunno:

Just remember that both can form abiotically.

Not the ones in cells.

I guess if you can read the Bible to say that the firmament is the crust of the Earth, then it's not surprising that you'd get that from what I said.

The bible is a bit clearer about what happened and when than you are:

Genesis 1
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
...
6 Then God said, “Let there be [an expanse] in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the [expanse], and divided the waters which were under the [expanse] from the waters which were above the [expanse]; and it was so. 8 And God called the [expanse] Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.​

God created a paradise for people to live upon and He called it Heaven. Seems pretty clear to me. :idunno: