Right Divider
Body part
near
Rapture Ready
- Thread starter serpentdove
- Start date
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and so near that it can happen at any time. In the following verse John speaks about what will happen at that appearance:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive--"for we shall see him as he is."
They were expecting that at His appearance they would be made like Him--"we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him."
It will only be at the rapture when the living saints will be made like the Lord Jesus. And only those in the Body will be raptured.
That is the "hope" of which John speaks about here:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 Jn.3:2-3).
That's the same blessed hope of which Paul speaks here:
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
The "glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus" in His glorious body and all those in the Body will put on a glorious body like His:
"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed...And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1 Pet.5:1,4).
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it cannot be denied that it is a duck.
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Right Divider
Body part
I understand what you believe. You've wrote it a thousand times.
You fail to take MANY other things into account. You think that there is no difference between the role of the nation of Israel and the role of the body of Christ. There is.
Doctrinal Study of a Thing Over Jerry's Mere, Greek Word Study
Doctrinal Study of a Thing Over Jerry's Mere, Greek Word Study
Rubbish, Jer.
For throughout both the OT and the NT, imminence is more about a sense or attitude that any day might be the very day in which the Lord makes good on one promise or another.
Your problem is that you have made yourself an absolute fool all these years by your approach.
Which you ever prove involves your walking over to your personal library in contrast to years invested merely reading Scripture itself, from cover to cover, repeatedly.
Your Interplanner approach is fooling no one other than you, yourself.
Years at that fool approach has rendered you both very pathetically ill-informed, and just as pathetically ill-equipped to rightly discern between these things of the Lord...
"Imminence," you fraud?
Here is Scriptures actual sense of that.
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
When LORD, when?
Many centuries later...
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Yeah, but when, LORD, when - you've been saying that like - forever! Lol
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Hunh?
What happened to that "shortly" you asserted in Romans, Paul?
What's that, Peter?
Even more "imminence" that's what.
:chuckle:
2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Got it! So, a very long, long, long passage of "any day now" and then one day - as if out of nowhere - POW! - "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished..."
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
So, again - one heck of a long time of "any day now" and then, as if out of nowhere - POW! Got it.
In other words, when it comes to "imminence..."
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
That, Jerry, you books based incompetent, is "imminence" - the Operating Principle or Basic Rule of Thumb that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" so get to wait'n as if "today just might be that day..."
You're some character, Jerry.
:rotfl:
In this, as to the things of the Lord, yes, Jerry, the writer of Hebrews was indeed addressing you, specifically...
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
:chuckle:
Rom. 5:6-8.
____________________
Thanks for the moment of humor at your expense, and by your own hand, Jer - gotta luv ya for that.
Doctrinal Study of a Thing Over Jerry's Mere, Greek Word Study
Rubbish, Jer.
For throughout both the OT and the NT, imminence is more about a sense or attitude that any day might be the very day in which the Lord makes good on one promise or another.
Your problem is that you have made yourself an absolute fool all these years by your approach.
Which you ever prove involves your walking over to your personal library in contrast to years invested merely reading Scripture itself, from cover to cover, repeatedly.
Your Interplanner approach is fooling no one other than you, yourself.
Years at that fool approach has rendered you both very pathetically ill-informed, and just as pathetically ill-equipped to rightly discern between these things of the Lord...
"Imminence," you fraud?
Here is Scriptures actual sense of that.
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
When LORD, when?
Many centuries later...
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Yeah, but when, LORD, when - you've been saying that like - forever! Lol
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Hunh?
What happened to that "shortly" you asserted in Romans, Paul?
What's that, Peter?
Even more "imminence" that's what.
:chuckle:
2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Got it! So, a very long, long, long passage of "any day now" and then one day - as if out of nowhere - POW! - "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished..."
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
So, again - one heck of a long time of "any day now" and then, as if out of nowhere - POW! Got it.
In other words, when it comes to "imminence..."
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
That, Jerry, you books based incompetent, is "imminence" - the Operating Principle or Basic Rule of Thumb that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" so get to wait'n as if "today just might be that day..."
You're some character, Jerry.
:rotfl:
In this, as to the things of the Lord, yes, Jerry, the writer of Hebrews was indeed addressing you, specifically...
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
:chuckle:
Rom. 5:6-8.
____________________
Thanks for the moment of humor at your expense, and by your own hand, Jer - gotta luv ya for that.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You remain in a state of counfusion because you fail to realize that the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside at the time when the Body came into existence. So you misrepresent my beliefs when you accuse me of thinking that there is no difference between the two.
You remain confused because you continue to deny that the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down and both groups have been made members of the Body of Christ.
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:14-16).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So the fact that James wrote that the Lord Jesus' coming is near has nothing to do with His promise that can come at any moment?
Do you really think that makes sense to anyone but you?
Right Divider
Body part
I deny no such thing. I do deny that God CHANGED the calling of the twelve. The Bible says that God does not do that.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The calling of the "nation" of Israel is earthly in nature and that will never change. But at the present time that nation has been temporarily set aside.
On the other hand the "individual" Jewish believers have a "heavenly calling." Here we see two different passages from the Scriptures which speak of a " heavenly calling":
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb.12:22-24).
Only those in the Body of Christ have a heavenly calling so those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.
You confuse the "calling" of the NATION of Israel with the "calling" of INDIVIDUAL Jews.
And you don't seem to undetstand that the nation of Israel has been temporarily set aside.
Right Divider
Body part
The nation is made up of individuals.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why did you just ignore the verses which I gave which speaks of the heavenly calling of the Jewish believers?
Right Divider
Body part
I do not ignore it Jerry, I understand it in its context.
The kingdom of heaven is described in Daniel. The "heavenly calling" for the nation of Israel was not something new.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
A "nation" is earthly in nature. You cannot seem to be able to tell the difference between "individuals" and "nations."
Right Divider
Body part
The kingdom of heaven will be on the earth.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Bible verse to which you refer is speaking of the calling of the "nation" of Israel. So when the nation of Israel was set aside what was the LORD going to do with the believers within that nation? The Apostle Paul made it plain what happened to them:
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:14-16).
There is nothing here that even hints that the middle wall of partition remained up in regard to some of the Jewish believers but if your ideas are right then that is exactly what we must believe.
If only some of the Jewish believers were made members of the Body then surely Paul would have said something here and the fact that he didn't means that all of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ.
Right Divider
Body part
I never referred to a verse in regard to that. Did you assume once again?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Kingdom of God
1. OT Israel- land
2. NT Israel- New Jerusalem
3. Body of Christ- heavens
He that filleth all in all...
1. OT Israel- land
2. NT Israel- New Jerusalem
3. Body of Christ- heavens
He that filleth all in all...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
There is only one verse which it could be--Romans 11:29.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Well, who do we have here but STP!
And you are right that the sphere of the Body of Christ is in heaven:
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
The Jewish believers also have a heavenly calling:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb.12:22-24).
Only those in the Body of Christ have a heavenly calling so those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and so near that it can happen at any time. In the following verse John speaks about what will happen at that appearance:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).
John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive--"for we shall see him as he is."
They were expecting that at His appearance they would be made like Him--"we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him."
It will only be at the rapture when the living saints will be made like the Lord Jesus. And only those in the Body will be raptured.
That is the "hope" of which John speaks about here:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 Jn.3:2-3).
That's the same blessed hope of which Paul speaks here:
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
The "glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus" in His glorious body and all those in the Body will put on a glorious body like His:
"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed...And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" (1 Pet.5:1,4).
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it cannot be denied that it is a duck.