Question for Bob Hill: Rewards
- Thread starter Sozo
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God_Is_Truth
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I haven't seen him post anywhere else lately. Perhaps he just hasn't been online for a while
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
I’m sorry this took so long. I have been very busy.
I think we have a pretty definitive statement in 2 Timothy about what the reward will be and whether we will be close to getting it. I will list it here with my comments. 2 Ti 2:10 “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
The elect are those who are already saved. Therefore, Paul is enduring these things for their sake. He wants them to obtain not just salvation, which will be great, but he wants them to obtain the salvation with eternal glory. That eternal glory is reigning with Him. just think, reigning with Him forever and ever. 2 Ti 2:11-15 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
Now we come to the first class conditions in this section of 2 Timothy. This means, if we fulfill the matter in the protasis, we get the mat :juggle: ter in the apodosis. We did die with Him according to Rom 6:3-11. So we know that we are going to live with Him. Now, the question is, what kind of life are you going to have when you’re with Him. Are you just going to be there-not bad, or are you going to be reigning with Him?
Now we have some more first class conditions. 2 Ti 2:12 If we endure, we shall also reign (reign with Him as kings) with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
How much endurance? It doesn’t say. But that’s the big question. I don’t think there can be many lapses, but we know God is merciful. But, He’s also fair. So when it says “If we deny Him, He also will deny us”, I think that means He will deny us reigning with Him if we deny Him by our life or His word.
2 Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Our salvation is not on the line. Even if we become faithless (This word has a number of meanings. Here’s BGD edited: 1. disbelieve, refuse to believe—a. Mk 16:11; Lk 24:41. aypistoun refused to believe Ac 28:24; a. someone Lk 24:11. b. the relig. sense Mk 16:16. the unbelievers of pagans and Jews 1 Pt 2:7. 2. be unfaithful Ro 3:3; 2 Ti 2:13.), no matter, we have eternal security. We cannot lose our salvation. He cannot deny the body of Christ.
The next aspect we must consider is found in 14 & 15. Here, we’ll see that we must not strive about words for no reason, and we must rightly divide God’s word.
2 Ti 2:14,15 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
If we don’t “rightly dividing the word of truth”, we will send out a message of legalism. The dispensation of grace is unique since God called Abraham to be the father of circumcision. It looks as though many will lose their reward because of bad theology. I’m not sure to what extent this is true, but it doesn’t look good for all the nomians out there.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
I think we have a pretty definitive statement in 2 Timothy about what the reward will be and whether we will be close to getting it. I will list it here with my comments. 2 Ti 2:10 “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
The elect are those who are already saved. Therefore, Paul is enduring these things for their sake. He wants them to obtain not just salvation, which will be great, but he wants them to obtain the salvation with eternal glory. That eternal glory is reigning with Him. just think, reigning with Him forever and ever. 2 Ti 2:11-15 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
Now we come to the first class conditions in this section of 2 Timothy. This means, if we fulfill the matter in the protasis, we get the mat :juggle: ter in the apodosis. We did die with Him according to Rom 6:3-11. So we know that we are going to live with Him. Now, the question is, what kind of life are you going to have when you’re with Him. Are you just going to be there-not bad, or are you going to be reigning with Him?
Now we have some more first class conditions. 2 Ti 2:12 If we endure, we shall also reign (reign with Him as kings) with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
How much endurance? It doesn’t say. But that’s the big question. I don’t think there can be many lapses, but we know God is merciful. But, He’s also fair. So when it says “If we deny Him, He also will deny us”, I think that means He will deny us reigning with Him if we deny Him by our life or His word.
2 Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Our salvation is not on the line. Even if we become faithless (This word has a number of meanings. Here’s BGD edited: 1. disbelieve, refuse to believe—a. Mk 16:11; Lk 24:41. aypistoun refused to believe Ac 28:24; a. someone Lk 24:11. b. the relig. sense Mk 16:16. the unbelievers of pagans and Jews 1 Pt 2:7. 2. be unfaithful Ro 3:3; 2 Ti 2:13.), no matter, we have eternal security. We cannot lose our salvation. He cannot deny the body of Christ.
The next aspect we must consider is found in 14 & 15. Here, we’ll see that we must not strive about words for no reason, and we must rightly divide God’s word.
2 Ti 2:14,15 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
If we don’t “rightly dividing the word of truth”, we will send out a message of legalism. The dispensation of grace is unique since God called Abraham to be the father of circumcision. It looks as though many will lose their reward because of bad theology. I’m not sure to what extent this is true, but it doesn’t look good for all the nomians out there.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
I think it is intuitive (Scripture does not reveal great detail about the nature of heaven and eternity) that there are degrees of reward and degrees of punishment.
Faith vs unbelief determines destiny. Those who believe and continue to believe will be with Christ forever. Corporately, we will rule and reign with Him (I am not sure I agree with Bob, especially on the Timothy interpretation that concludes OSAS). Those who reject Christ (whether they once followed Him or not) will not be with Christ and thus will not reign with Him.
Eph. 2:8-10 We are God's workmanship ("poem") and are created for good works after we are saved. Works will determine degree of reward or responsibility in heaven, whatever shape that takes. The thief on the cross will be in heaven, but will have limited rewards. Hebrews says that God is faithful to remember what we have done for the saints. I Cor. 3 shows that our motives and ministry works will be judged. God has always rewarded obedience (Deut.) and rebuked disobedience.
2 Cor. 5:10 Believers appear at the Bema Seat judgment to have their works and motives judged (our sins were judged at the cross). We receive what is due for things done in the body (works), whether good or bad. This is reasonable, since God is a rewarder of those who serve Him.
Unbelievers have the same destiny, but I do not think a Mormon will have the same degree of punishment as Satan or Hitler. They end up in the lake of fire, but it seems Satan and demons are in the lowest pit (whatever that entails). Separation is separation, but God will judge justly. Though the destiny is the same, the degree of punishment varies. It is speculative as to what that entails. Greater light means greater accountability (vs heathen who never heard the Gospel...still a sinner, but not as culpable as most North Americans).
Rev. 22:12 shows that the dead are judged according to what they had done (some did more or less good/evil). The GWT judgment primarily judges unbeliever's works for degree of punishment. Unbelief, not works, got them to this judgment to begin with (some millennial saints will end up here and will find their name in the Book of life...they will not be judged for their evil or sins). Unbelief gets them to the lake of fire, but they are also judged individually ACCORDING to what they had done.
Faith vs unbelief determines destiny. Those who believe and continue to believe will be with Christ forever. Corporately, we will rule and reign with Him (I am not sure I agree with Bob, especially on the Timothy interpretation that concludes OSAS). Those who reject Christ (whether they once followed Him or not) will not be with Christ and thus will not reign with Him.
Eph. 2:8-10 We are God's workmanship ("poem") and are created for good works after we are saved. Works will determine degree of reward or responsibility in heaven, whatever shape that takes. The thief on the cross will be in heaven, but will have limited rewards. Hebrews says that God is faithful to remember what we have done for the saints. I Cor. 3 shows that our motives and ministry works will be judged. God has always rewarded obedience (Deut.) and rebuked disobedience.
2 Cor. 5:10 Believers appear at the Bema Seat judgment to have their works and motives judged (our sins were judged at the cross). We receive what is due for things done in the body (works), whether good or bad. This is reasonable, since God is a rewarder of those who serve Him.
Unbelievers have the same destiny, but I do not think a Mormon will have the same degree of punishment as Satan or Hitler. They end up in the lake of fire, but it seems Satan and demons are in the lowest pit (whatever that entails). Separation is separation, but God will judge justly. Though the destiny is the same, the degree of punishment varies. It is speculative as to what that entails. Greater light means greater accountability (vs heathen who never heard the Gospel...still a sinner, but not as culpable as most North Americans).
Rev. 22:12 shows that the dead are judged according to what they had done (some did more or less good/evil). The GWT judgment primarily judges unbeliever's works for degree of punishment. Unbelief, not works, got them to this judgment to begin with (some millennial saints will end up here and will find their name in the Book of life...they will not be judged for their evil or sins). Unbelief gets them to the lake of fire, but they are also judged individually ACCORDING to what they had done.
Sozo, it appears that you're confusing Heaven with the New Jerusalem.Sozo said:Greetings Bob,
It looks like you pulled an allnighter to address various questions, :yawn: and I thank you for taking the time to respond to mine.
However, as you may know, I'm not very transparent.
I'll try again...
My original question:
Are these rewards material in nature? If so, how can we perceive them as rewards? In other words, how can we perceive value in heaven?
In your response, you do an excellent job of revealing that our reward is in Christ, and in our reigning with Him. You then suggest that we may lose some of our reward of reigning with Him, and that may be true, but why would we care?
All those things, such as envy, strife, coveting, jealousy, greed, etc. are no longer an issue. We are no longer in the flesh. We are partakers of His divine nature, and therefore not only free from the effects of sin, but the ability to sin.
So, how can we perceive value? How does reigning, or not reigning, have any intrinsic value?
If I am walking on streets of dung, as opposed to streets of Gold, why would it matter?
Can I honestly say to myself, "I sure wish that these streets were gold!" or "What happen to God's promise of streets of gold? This doesn't seem fair"?
Do you see my point?
The value of things, time, or responsibilities cannot effect my thinking. How can there be any disappointment or stimulation?
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
What is your response to the security of the believer when the believer, in this Dispensation of Grace becomes part of God’s predestined plan and can therefore not ever lose his place with God.
We have to see that this is a dispensational thing since we know that Israel pridefully thought they could not lose their salvation. We shouldn’t be prideful just because we cannot lose our salvation. My security is based on His security statements.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
If the Gentiles do continue in this same attitude that the majority of Israel had, God said through Paul, “Watch out!” However, our eternal security is secure because we are predestined to be holy and blameless once we trust Christ. Other important aspects of our security are our adoption and sealing.
According to Gal 4:3-5 we went from slaves to adopted sons. Gal 4:3-5 “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”
Now, what does this adoption mean? We read in Gal 3:13-18, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant (or will diathaykayn), yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
How could Paul write that? We can change a will any time we want to, in America today. But the Galatian cities were under Greek law. And it was different under ancient Greek law. The greatest archeologist of Turkey, William Ramsay, wrote a lot about adoption in his Historical Commentary of Galatians, pp 349-355.
He showed how the adopted son could not be disinherited even though the natural child could be disinherited. That’s why Ephesians 1 tells us of the security of our adoption. Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
We enter into the full status of our inheritance and enjoyment of our adoption when the rapture takes place and we receive our glorified body, so the time of our adoption, at the rapture, is shown in Rom 8:14,15 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
We also have the present results of our adoption. Gal 4:4-7 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Finally, to show the surety of our adoption/salvation, God seals us and guarantees our inheritance and makes it all absolute by predestinating it. Eph 1:5-7,11-14 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works the all things (ta panta], the body of Christ) according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”
Our salvation is guaranteed and sealed by God. On top of that, it is all predestined. You can’t beat that.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
What is your response to the security of the believer when the believer, in this Dispensation of Grace becomes part of God’s predestined plan and can therefore not ever lose his place with God.
We have to see that this is a dispensational thing since we know that Israel pridefully thought they could not lose their salvation. We shouldn’t be prideful just because we cannot lose our salvation. My security is based on His security statements.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
If the Gentiles do continue in this same attitude that the majority of Israel had, God said through Paul, “Watch out!” However, our eternal security is secure because we are predestined to be holy and blameless once we trust Christ. Other important aspects of our security are our adoption and sealing.
According to Gal 4:3-5 we went from slaves to adopted sons. Gal 4:3-5 “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”
Now, what does this adoption mean? We read in Gal 3:13-18, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant (or will diathaykayn), yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
How could Paul write that? We can change a will any time we want to, in America today. But the Galatian cities were under Greek law. And it was different under ancient Greek law. The greatest archeologist of Turkey, William Ramsay, wrote a lot about adoption in his Historical Commentary of Galatians, pp 349-355.
He showed how the adopted son could not be disinherited even though the natural child could be disinherited. That’s why Ephesians 1 tells us of the security of our adoption. Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
We enter into the full status of our inheritance and enjoyment of our adoption when the rapture takes place and we receive our glorified body, so the time of our adoption, at the rapture, is shown in Rom 8:14,15 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
We also have the present results of our adoption. Gal 4:4-7 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Finally, to show the surety of our adoption/salvation, God seals us and guarantees our inheritance and makes it all absolute by predestinating it. Eph 1:5-7,11-14 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works the all things (ta panta], the body of Christ) according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”
Our salvation is guaranteed and sealed by God. On top of that, it is all predestined. You can’t beat that.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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elected4ever
New member
The new earth. Old things will have passed away and all things will become new. Christ Jesus will reign on Earth at his return and heaven will still be the abode of God the Father.truthman said:
elected4ever
New member
What you seem to neglect is that there is no sin in those in Christ Jesus and we are of the Spirit and not of the flesh and the body, also called flesh, is quickened by the spirit and the work done in the body is a result of the quickening of the spirit to do the work. There is no good work outside of that. All the works that has as there origin the flesh nature of man are not good works no matter how religious and acceptable by men they might be.Bob Hill said:If our level of rewards are not a significant thing for eternity, I don't know why God would emphasize them like He does.
I think a lot has to do with how our brain works. In our daily lives we need motivation to do stuff. Using earthly examples gives us an understanding. Like Run the race so as to finish it. It is more about our example to the world of Godly character than about finishing the race.
I think there are degrees in our services we will perform for the King. But for whatever purpose the King has for me in His service will be commensurate with His appointment. I think earth is a training ground to develop the needed skills and experience. I am really to stupid to know what is a good or what is a bad work. I may be doing a good work and not even know it. I just do what is placed before me that day with varying degrees of success. There is a lot of trust in my life. What ever God has planed for me, I am sure it will be worth it.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Heaven.
The body of Christ, those who are saved in this Dispensation of Grace have their citizenship in heaven.
Phil 3:29 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
“Our citizenship is in heaven,”. The pronoun, haymon, (“our”) is first here. It emphasizes our position in the heavenlies. The redeemed Jews, prior to the Dispensation of Grace, have their position on earth.
We will be caught up at the rapture and always be with the Lord.
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Phil 2:9,10 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth.
We in the Body of Christ are the ones in heaven.
Col 1:19,20 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Bob Hill
The body of Christ, those who are saved in this Dispensation of Grace have their citizenship in heaven.
Phil 3:29 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
“Our citizenship is in heaven,”. The pronoun, haymon, (“our”) is first here. It emphasizes our position in the heavenlies. The redeemed Jews, prior to the Dispensation of Grace, have their position on earth.
We will be caught up at the rapture and always be with the Lord.
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Phil 2:9,10 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth.
We in the Body of Christ are the ones in heaven.
Col 1:19,20 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Bob Hill
elected4ever
New member
When Jesus returns and we are translated, where does it say that Jesus goes back to heaven? Of course our citizenship is in heaven now but that wasn't the question as I understood it.Bob Hill said:
Yes, there is a lot of room for speculation isn't there!
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Again, we will be caught up at the rapture and always be with the Lord.
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Redeemed Israel will be on the new Earth.
Bob Hill
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Redeemed Israel will be on the new Earth.
Bob Hill