Question Concerning The Plot

[docrob57]

But if God knew for certain that Israel would be disobedient and therefore He would not drive out the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites, why did God emphatically promise that He would?

He wanted to give them the opportunity. I have moved from a determinist to a free will perspective. That much I have done. I just think that to deny foreknowledge is am improper limitation on God, and an unnecessary one.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Okay, first off, I'm sorry I brought this up because, as before, this is quickly becoming a pointless discussion. I am listening to the Tree now, which, again, the same generous TOLer sent me, and all these teachings are so important and interesting I am just going to forget about the foreknowledge thing for now.

Nevertheless, I will try one more time to offer an analogy to explain my position. This will not convince you. I will just try to explain why the contradiction you continue to assert does not exist, at least from my perspective.

I have a child. I know that when the child is 15 he will become overcome with lust for pretty girls that he knows. When he is 10, I tell him, "Son, when you are 15 I am going to throw you out of the house." "Why?" my son asks, reasonably I think. "Because, you are going to be overcome with lust for pretty girls and you will violate one and that is not acceptable, so you will have to leave."

Now, I "know" that my son will not want to be thrown out of the house. So I "know" that he will not violate a girl and I will not have to throw him out. I don't say this, because it would look like a willingness to compromise, and I am not willing to do that.

My son turns 15. He meets Becky, a major hottie. He burns with lust. However, he makes not attempt to violate her, because he remembers my threat. He behaves, and is able to continue living at home. So I was right.

Now, could my son have violated Becky? Of course. If he had, would I have thrown him out of the house? Of course. Was my warning false? No. Did I have to act on it? No.

Did I know what the outcome would be? Not as surely as God knows, because I am not God. But in human terms, yes? Did my FOREKNOWLEDGE cause the outcome to occur as it did? No.

That is my position. I think it is pretty plain. I understand that you don't accept it. Which is okay by me! In the grand schene of things, I don't think it matters a lot.

Doc, the distinction is you do NOT have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge, yet you assert that God DOES have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge.

Perfect exhaustive foreknowledge makes all the difference in the world.

Words have meaning and the words we use define the thoughts and arguments we present.

If you want to assert that God has foreknowledge as you described above except to a MUCH higher degree then we can agree!

 

[docrob57]

Doc, the distinction is you do NOT have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge, yet you assert that God DOES have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge.

This is true, but the point is that if even I could have this much foreknowledge, how much more does God have?

Perfect exhaustive foreknowledge makes all the difference in the world.

Words have meaning and the words we use define the thoughts and arguments we present.

I agree with the second statement, but I am missing what you are getting at.

If you want to assert that God has foreknowledge as you described above except to a MUCH higher degree then we can agree

Not clear here either. I know that you beleive that God has some foreknowledge. I think He has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Poly]

Not clear here either. I know that you beleive that God has some foreknowledge. I think He has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. Is that what you are saying?

I think you're making this more difficult than it really is.

A man who has been married to a woman for 6 months (lets say they only knew each other for 3 months prior to their marriage) can have a pretty good foreknowlege of how his wife will react in a given situation. But a man who has been married to a woman for 10 years will have a greater foreknowledge of how his wife will react in even more given situations because he's had an opportunity to know her better but it's not a perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. So God, knowing us better than we can ever know each other would have a very great foreknowledge of us but it doesn't mean that it's a perfect exhaustive foreknowledge.

 

[Nineveh]

Perhaps defining what "perfect exhaustive foreknowledge" means...?

 

[docrob57]

Perhaps defining what "perfect exhaustive foreknowledge" means...?

It is Knight's phrase, so I will leave it to him to define it. The main conflict, as it see it, is mostly whether or not foreknowledge and free will can co-exist. I have given many examples of how it can. Even Poly did above. So I do not understand the insistance that it can't. I think this is the only thing that makes the question important.

Of course I could be wrong. I think that happened once.

 

[Freak]

Perhaps defining what "perfect exhaustive foreknowledge" means...?

Perhaps you need to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truths found in Holy Scripture...


How great is God—beyond our understanding!
The number of his years is past finding out.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Perhaps defining what "perfect exhaustive foreknowledge" means...?

I think the term must mean the following . . .

Perfect - not in error in anyway.
Exhaustive - complete, with nothing left out.
Foreknowledge - knowledge prior to the event. This is the part of the term that could have some flexibility in the sense that one could argue just how far beforehand did the foreknowledge come into being. Most folks that believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge believe that God has had this knowledge for all eternity, although I will let docrob comment on this himself.

Therefore when I argue against Perfect Exhaustive Foreknowledge I am arguing against the idea that God has known in exact detail every movement of every molecule, every thought of every creature, every event for all of time in complete detail for an eternity past.

 

[drbrumley]

Perhaps you need to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truths found in Holy Scripture...

Who says He hasn't? You?

How great is God—beyond our understanding!
The number of his years is past finding out.

Amen.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

Amen

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Perhaps you need to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truths found in Holy Scripture...


How great is God—beyond our understanding!
The number of his years is past finding out.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

Freak, God's understanding says nothing about God's foreknowledge.

 

[docrob57]

I think the term must mean the following . . .

Perfect - not in error in anyway.
Exhaustive - complete, with nothing left out.
Foreknowledge - knowledge prior to the event. This is the part of the term that could have some flexibility in the sense that one could argue just how far beforehand did the foreknowledge come into being. Most folks that believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge believe that God has had this knowledge for all eternity, although I will let docrob comment on this himself.

Therefore when I argue against Perfect Exhaustive Foreknowledge I am arguing against the idea that God has known in exact detail every movement of every molecule, every thought of every creature, every event for all of time in complete detail for an eternity past.

Okay, why is this question important then? I suggest that it isn't all that important since it does't deal with salvation, or even life instruction or anything of that nature.

 

[Freak]

Freak, God's understanding says nothing about God's foreknowledge.

There is no limitation to His understanding, means He is not limited in understanding the future.

 

[docrob57]

From Acts 2:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken F8 by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

 

[Nathon Detroit]

There is no limitation to His understanding, means He is not limited in understanding the future.

I think God does understand the future. So what?

Understanding, is simply not the same as experientially knowledge.

 

[drbrumley]

From Acts 2:

This is true. Why? GOD DETERMINED IT! FOR HIMSELF!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Okay, why is this question important then? I suggest that it isn't all that important since it does't deal with salvation, or even life instruction or anything of that nature.

It's important because we should represent God in a accurate and faithful fashion to the lost.

It's also important for our personal walk with God.

However, if it isn't important to you that's OK as well. I personally think you will eventually see why it's important.

 

[Freak]

I think God does understand the future. So what?

He knows all of it. For there is no limitation to His understanding.

Understanding, is simply not the same as experientially knowledge.

I guess one could tussle over semantics but the truth is Scripture declares God has no limitation to His understanding/knowledge.

Knight, in the Book of Job, it states:

Be assured that my words are not false;
one perfect in knowledge is with you.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

From Acts 2:

God predetermined that Christ would be the payment for sin.

This does not require perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. Yet instead requires pre-planning.

 

[docrob57]

God predetermined that Christ would be the payment for sin.

This does not require perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. Yet instead requires pre-planning.

Fair enough. Peace!

I am already enjoying The Tree quite a bit by the way. Good Stuff!!!

 

[Freak]

Okay, why is this question important then? I suggest that it isn't all that important since it does't deal with salvation, or even life instruction or anything of that nature.

It's important but there many more important items in life.

How one views Jesus for starters.