beloved57
Well-known member
you appear confused.
ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
you appear confused.
Shasta
Well-known member
I know exactly what metanoia means. Just state your point
Shasta
Well-known member
Let us look at your scripture
3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” (John 3:3)
Where does it say that the new birth is totally involuntary? This verse does not speak to the conditions under which the new birth occurs. It is addressing the future implications - which are that it is necessary to be in order to see the Kingdom of God.
Shasta
Well-known member
answer 1: No
answer 2: Not exactly. Faith and obedience are inseparable.
Why do you keep testing me. You should know what I think by now.
God's Truth
New member
I don't think you should call it a test. However, back to why I am questioning you about your teachings is because you say such true and good things, but then once in a while you seem to exhibit some of the fear of obedience teachings from false faith alone teachers.
You say things like this: “Here is another point. Salvation is free in that we give nothing in exchange that is of equal value to it. Getting grafted into the Vine is not a privilege anyone can earn.” [End]
Salvation is given to those who believe and trust Jesus’ words and those words say to obey and repent. We are rewarded with life when we do what Jesus says.
Shasta
Well-known member
Do you really think this promise deals with the case of a believer who is in the process of backsliding - or is the subject the security of those "sheep" who are following the Shepherd and abiding in the Father's hand. I do not see any evidence that the Shepherd irresistibly draws and then holds the sheep forcibly in His care. That sheep sometimes stray can be seen in the parable where Jesus described "leaving the ninety nine to go and rescue the wayward one."
If you are saying that coming to Christ initially and staying there is inevitable and involuntary then perhaps you should reconsider Calvinism.
…27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.…
I have seen Israeli shepherds leading their sheep out to pasture on the grasslands of the Golan Heights. I assure you not one of the sheep were chained to the shepherds. Any of them could have left except that they were bonded to the Shepherd and probably afraid of not being in the flock. Nevertheless, they tended to be rather playful and distractible. Whenever one was not paying attention the shepherds would throw a hubcap at them like a frisbee. It did not hurt them but it just reminded them to stay on track. The sheep would quickly respond by following the others. The security of these sheep came from their bond to the shepherds but that is not always so. Sometimes sheep stray. Human beings can be quite stubborn and self-willed; even believers. Jesus said this about His sheep.
…27 My sheep listen (present tense: as a habit) to My voice; I know them, and they follow (present tense are following) Me. 28 I give (am giving) them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.…
(John 10:27-28)
Verse 28 says I give them eternal life not I GAVE them eternal life (one time in the past). If your view is correct then they had to receive a one time gift of "eternal life" to even be a sheep but the word give is in the present tense meaning that just as the Shepherd was continuing to feed them so Jesus will continue to "feed" his people God's eternal life. In the same waythe metaphors of feeding on the living bread, drinking the living water and abiding in the Vine all present partaking of (God's) eternal life as part of an ongoing process and not a one-time event.
You say that no conditions are mentioned in the verse but, in fact, various conditions are woven into the imagery. For instance, the sheep are depicted as listening to the Master's voice and following after Him. This implies both love for (or a bond to) the Shepherd, faith (trust) in His ability to lead as well as obedience which is exemplified by responding to His voice.
Next, you say that the fact that no one can pluck (Greek: violently seize) the sheep out of the father's hand means that it is impossible for sheep to leave but this scenario only addresses the possibility of an outside agent, a thief, for instance, sneaking in, seizing a sheep by force and carrying them away to some place they do not want to go. Well, I do not believe any outside agent, including a religious authority or an agent of a secular government can take believers out of Christ. No circumstance of any kind can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. However, this does not deal with the possibility of a "sheep" willfully rebelling and leaving the fold of Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So the following verse says nothing about a quality of life that is added to our lives?:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
There is nothing provisional of that eternal lfe because the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
In your unbelief you are argue that those who have been given eternal life can perish!
True believers become the sons of God when they are born of God. And it is impossible for anyone to become unborn!
If someone leaves that means that he was never a true believer to begin with:
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" (1 Jn.2:19).
Shasta
Well-known member
I meant to say an extension our life. It is about quality and an extension too although eternal life is given once for all when we meet Him and receive a "crown of life"
I have shown you scriptures which show eternal life to be a reward for a living a life of faith obedience and love.
You are misusing the metaphor. Physically one cannot be unborn but that is because our relationship to our parents is genetically set in place as soon as we are conceived. From that moment our genetic identiry exists in every cell of our bodies. Being a Spiritual child of God is different unless you believe as the Gnostics did that God deposits a divine essence in us that exists apart from any choice we make. That belief is the reason the Gnostics thought no amount of sin would intrinsically change their status. Our kinship with God was initiated when we believed and submitted ourselves to Him and continues because we maintain that original position.
…13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
According to this verse, being led of the Spirit (obeying the impulses of the Head of the Body) is what makes us children. In this verse, the way to LIFE is said to be through "putting to death the deeds of the Body." Our sonship is not due to a permanent deposit of divine essence that remains unchanged in us no matter what we do. His eternal life is relational and ongoing.
Now what does Paul mean when he says they would die? Everyone dies. Therefore, I believe He must be speaking of (the second) spiritual death. This exhortation is not being directed at unbelievers but at Christians, if YOU live according to (the desires of) the flesh you will DIE. He does not take it as a given that this will never happen. He is stating that it very well might should they choose to live that way. The alternative is to live. Apparently inheriting eternal life life depends on more than a one time experience
Is this scripture saying that the ONLY reason people depart from the fellowship of believers is because they were never believers? As far as I can tell he is talking about the motives of one particular group which were the Gnostic cults. Does this therefore restrict the application of his teaching to people in heretical cults only? There is not enough in this one verse to say that.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Eternal life comes unto those who believe, not obey:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Obedience follows believing and by the time when someone believes he is saved and already has received eternal life:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
Eternal life is a gift (Ro.6:23) and the Lord will not take back that gift:
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
Those words are written to Christians who are to walk according to "newness of life" (Ro.6:4) and when that is done the life of the Lord Jesus will be made manifest in our mortal flesh (2 Cor.4:11). So if a Christian lives according to the desires of the flesh then that newness of life will die.
musterion
Well-known member
Do tell us what it means. literally in Greek. If you actually do know, then my point is obvious.
musterion
Well-known member
Isn't obvious - he is an extremist.
To such an individual or individuals as a collective drawn to one another due to their shared bigotry; a thing is either THEIR black or THEIR white...alone.
Given its' resulting bigotry; some extremists cannot but play such baiting games.
For such, there is ever a game of one sort or another to have to win at other's expense.
Shasta
Well-known member
Faith and obedience is not any thing like equal exchange for the gift of eternal life with God. Nothing we do can EARN something that is of infinite value. God by His grace did the work through the Son of making it possible for us to obtain this life but we must not get the idea that we earn it.
I came to believe in God through weakness, realizing I could do nothing to save myself. I fought against God at first but finally through surrendering myself to him I came to experience the reality of Jesus. This surrender WAS an act of faith. If we really "trust" in God (which is one meaning of "believe") then we will ENtrust ourselves TO Him. If we say we believe in Him, and even that we believe the correct doctrines about Him but do not trust Him with ourselves then we have not begun to have real faith in Him. This is why I see no contradiction between James and Paul's teaching. James was renouncing a merely mental kind of belief that did not involve the will while Paul was renouncing the idea of obtaining salvation by the performing works of the Mosaic law.
Now you have claimed I am afraid of saying some things. If anyone else in this site has observed this I would be surprised. I have frequently taken unpopular positions on the issues, not because I am trying to be a contrarian but because of what I happen to believe. I have also changed my mind about some significant matters because, in the course of conversation and debate, I came to see defects in my hermeneutics.
Shasta
Well-known member
Thanks for the heads up. I want you and Jerry both to know that though I disagree with you on a few points I believe you are sincere believers. IMO the essential doctrines are those summarized in the Creeds.
It appears all the various shades of MADs on TOL are sincere believers.
But some people bring an extremism to things.
That is just such people.
It is not necessarily the doctrine espoused by such.
Such just bring what is actually just their overall personality - an extremist one - to their walk in the Lord.
Along the thought of 1 Cor. 3, such will one day find themselves saved, yes; but so as by fire :chuckle:
God's Truth
New member
...and they will go to hell for it too if they do not enter that grace and BELIEVE and REPENT.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus' words are Spirit and they are life.
No one will get that life unless they do what the Word says.
You have to obey or you will not receive it.
You say you surrendered. Jesus says you will never enter unless you humble yourself. Looks like you did more than just believe.
You are preaching against Jesus showing us the Way to get saved.
That could be from a residual teaching from false teachers.
I am not talking about you being afraid of other people here.
I am talking about the repeated false teachings from almost all teachers that say we are saved by faith alone and nothing else.
There is a fear in what they say, as if saying you obeyed the Lord could cause you condemnation, as if you stepped on his toes and disgraced him.
God's Truth
New member
Man made creeds do not determine our salvation, only Jesus Christ can do that.
Creeds do not even mention obeying God.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Neither did Paul and those who were with Him:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
God's Truth
New member
They heard the message about forgiveness of sins and then they were water baptized. Water baptism is about repenting of sins. It is about dying to the sins of the world. It is about dying to Jesus and then living for him.