ECT Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[Jerry Shugart]

And yet James and John, with their many litmus tests, WARN the Jewish believers against false faith, not having adequate works, not producing fruit, and falling away. Baptists never try to square that with all their born again "they were as saved as us" talk.

Here are the Lord Jesus' own words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

You need to heed the warnings about false faith because you cannot understand that the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that faith and faith alone saved them them, as witnessed by His words spoken to a Jewess who lived under the law:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

 

[musterion]

Here are the Lord Jesus' own words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Demonstrated by righteous lawkeeping. But not so today. Hence the BUT NOW of Romans 3:21.

You're a preacher the law Jerry, how come you don't do everything in the law?

You are incoherent because you don't know that you can't straddle two dispensations.

 

[musterion]

Also...

Acts 13:38-39

What does this tell us?

It tells us that before Paul's gospel was revealed, being justified before God included the law.

That means justification at that time cannot have been through faith alone.

That means all of Acts 2 Jerry's "faith alone" citations from the four gospels - all on law ground - do not prove the point he's trolling to prove.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Demonstrated by righteous lawkeeping. But not so today. Hence the BUT NOW of Romans 3:21.

Why do you try your best to pervert the words of the Lord Jesus? Hisfollowing words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law say nothing about lawkeeping but only about "believing" to inherit everlasting life:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

In fact, He told the Jews who lived under the law that His words bring spiritual life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your perverted version of the truths revealed by the Savior His words alone were insufficent to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law. Now let us look at Romans 3:21 so you can have another verse which you can do your very best to pervert:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify" (Ro.3:21).​

The righteousness which is of God which is apart from law was then being made known by Paul. It is the gospel of the mystery which had been kept secret since the world began. And notice that Paul says that the "law and the prophets testify" to this righteousness of God which is apart from law.

In other words, he is saying there is evidence contained in the Old Testament which demonstrates that throughout time all believers have been imputed with the righteousness of God which is apart from law. Then in the next chapter Paul uses David, who lived under the law, as evidence of this imputed righteousness which is apart from law:

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them" (Ro.4:5-8).​

 

[musterion]

Jerry tries to make the dispensation of Law into the dispensation of grace. Typical Acts 2 thinking.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry tries to make the dispensation of Law into the dispensation of grace. Typical Acts 2 thinking.

The 'dispensation of grace" began when Paul started preaching the gospel of grace to the gentiles at Acts 13.

However, those who lived under the law were saved by grace trough faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Acts 4:16).​

All of this is way, way, way over your head because you still assert that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact the the Savior himself said the following to them:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).

The Lord's words there are also way, way, way above your understand and the reason is simple:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

 

[musterion]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjXTMyURrNtKs-e9yqixEAw/featured

His playlist...

 

[musterion]

...View attachment 26716

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is not my picture!

 

[musterion]

I do not believe you.

 

[oatmeal]

At the moment you were born-again …
you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!

“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Now for some confirming NT passages …

Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke
in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sin(s).
They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.

“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.”
(2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.” (2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. … He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent. … what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time … Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …” (2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)

John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them …
We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance …
we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)

2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father.
He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)

Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again!
They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word.
So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world, and the devil.
They have no excuse for failing to do this.

Yes,

I am not yet forgiven of the sins that I have not done because I have not yet done the sins I have not done, the price for my forgiveness has been paid for, but forgiveness depends on my confessing my sin to God then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me of all sins. I John 1:9

 

[musterion]

Yes,

I am not yet forgiven of the sins that I have not done because I have not yet done the sins I have not done, the price for my forgiveness has been paid for, but forgiveness depends on my confessing my sin to God then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me of all sins. I John 1:9

You are dangerously wrong, as wrong as ZyklonB is, only in a different direction.

1. Confession-dependent forgiveness per 1 John 1:9 is a work, a non-negotiable that MUST be done. That much IS clear. But Paul said salvation (forgiveness + justification) is without works during this dispensation of grace. Therefore John cannot have been speaking to or about you as he was not appointed to address people of this dispensation of grace. John is not your apostle, Paul is.

2. Colossians 2:13. "All" means all. Since Christ died for the sins of the world before most of those for whom He died were born, all sins had to have been dealt with forever at the Cross.

3. The believer today is counted as having DIED to sin, meaning sin is no longer a factor in God's reckoning of his or her standing in Christ. The gain or loss of rewards is what's now at stake for the saved, not damnation.

4. The believer today is also counted as having DIED to law -- God's righteous standard and means of condemnation. How? Because he/she is counted as in Christ, and it is He who died. So the believer today has neither sin debt nor law hanging over his/her head. Christ took both,

5. In Him is the believer's newness of life, forever freed from both sin and law. All that remains is the world, the flesh and the devil, but the believer is not of necessity subject to ANY of these. Perhaps by choice, yes, but he/she is still absolutely separated and apart from them all in God's reckoning -- and that's all that counts.

Stop trying to help God save you. He doesn't need your help. The work is done. Just trust all that the Bible says Christ did for you and, in faith, rest in that, and you'll be saved.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Now if only about 2 dozen trolls and blasphemers would get banned, TOL might be a productive place.

But alas, 2 dozen trolling and blaspheming MADist works-salvation mongers and Open Theists aren’t likely to get banned here at Apostasy Central any more than the Arians, Unitarians, and other heretics.

Why don’t you and the MAD crew just unjoin? That would relieve TOL of a huge majority of trolls and blasphemers, leaving the other heretics no one to argue with.

Then authentic orthodox Christians could continue to converse on TOL without all the MADist and Open Theist antics and posturing.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You are dangerously wrong, as wrong as ZyklonB is, only in a different direction.

1. Confession-dependent forgiveness per 1 John 1:9 is a work, a non-negotiable that MUST be done. That much IS clear. But Paul said salvation (forgiveness + justification) is without works during this dispensation of grace. Therefore John cannot have been speaking to or about you as he was not appointed to address people of this dispensation of grace. John is not your apostle, Paul is.

2. Colossians 2:13. "All" means all. Since Christ died for the sins of the world before most of those for whom He died were born, all sins had to have been dealt with forever at the Cross.

3. The believer today is counted as having DIED to sin, meaning sin is no longer a factor in God's reckoning of his or her standing in Christ. The gain or loss of rewards is what's now at stake for the saved, not damnation.

4. The believer today is also counted as having DIED to law -- God's righteous standard and means of condemnation. How? Because he/she is counted as in Christ, and it is He who died. So the believer today has neither sin debt nor law hanging over his/her head. Christ took both,

5. In Him is the believer's newness of life, forever freed from both sin and law. All that remains is the world, the flesh and the devil, but the believer is not of necessity subject to ANY of these. Perhaps by choice, yes, but he/she is still absolutely separated and apart from them all in God's reckoning -- and that's all that counts.

Stop trying to help God save you. He doesn't need your help. The work is done. Just trust all that the Bible says Christ did for you and, in faith, rest in that, and you'll be saved.

So trustING and restING are the works that will save someone, according to MAD false doctrine; just like knowING and believING the MAD false gospel of hyper-works by man.

All those verbs are action. Works. Faith and grace and repentance and confession are NOUNS. Greek anarthrous nouns. Your verbs won’t save you. They’re your own works. Only the finished work of Christ applied to man will save. Not one work of the Law will save anyone.

Your knowING, trustING, believING, restING, and all your other verbs of doING are not anything that will save you as your futile works.

 

[oatmeal]

You are dangerously wrong, as wrong as ZyklonB is, only in a different direction.

1. Confession-dependent forgiveness per 1 John 1:9 is a work, a non-negotiable that MUST be done. That much IS clear. But Paul said salvation (forgiveness + justification) is without works during this dispensation of grace. Therefore John cannot have been speaking to or about you as he was not appointed to address people of this dispensation of grace. John is not your apostle, Paul is.

2. Colossians 2:13. "All" means all. Since Christ died for the sins of the world before most of those for whom He died were born, all sins had to have been dealt with forever at the Cross.

3. The believer today is counted as having DIED to sin, meaning sin is no longer a factor in God's reckoning of his or her standing in Christ. The gain or loss of rewards is what's now at stake for the saved, not damnation.

4. The believer today is also counted as having DIED to law -- God's righteous standard and means of condemnation. How? Because he/she is counted as in Christ, and it is He who died. So the believer today has neither sin debt nor law hanging over his/her head. Christ took both,

5. In Him is the believer's newness of life, forever freed from both sin and law. All that remains is the world, the flesh and the devil, but the believer is not of necessity subject to ANY of these. Perhaps by choice, yes, but he/she is still absolutely separated and apart from them all in God's reckoning -- and that's all that counts.

Stop trying to help God save you. He doesn't need your help. The work is done. Just trust all that the Bible says Christ did for you and, in faith, rest in that, and you'll be saved.

Actually, you are more than dangerously wrong.

1. The price has been paid but that does not exclude my participation in the reception of God's grace and mercy and forgiveness. I might point out that there are always some works required of all, (that I can think of), recipients of God's goodness, grace and mercy. We are not bearing the cost of our salvation or forgiveness, or healings or any other blessing of God. However, even those who willfully received God's goodness were required to do something to receive what they could not do for themselves.

Examples? the blind sought out Jesus Christ. Other situations of healing required some act of believing, Ie, "go wash in the pool of Siloam" "stretch forth thine hand" "if you can believe all things are possible to those who

a. sit there and do nothing

b. blame God for evil

c. believe

d. do not believe to act accordingly

Believing is always required of those who can willfully believe.

Believing is work. See James, you say you believe, fine, but you know I believe because of the works that I do.

2.. Yes, Jesus Christ did indeed die for all the sins of the world, however, that does not exclude the participation of the recipients to believe to receive God's goodness.

3. Yes we are dead to sin, but unless you believe that 100% all the time you are still subject to sin. Sin in the context of Romans 1-11 refers to sin nature, not to individual acts or error.

4. Yes, we are no longer under the law. Yet, God still spells out commandments in Paul's epistles. If neglect those commandments or refuse to live accordingly are we believingly obeying or sinning?

5. If you can believe, all things (God promises, God's promises) are possible, ie, presently available to those who do what?

a. do nothing

b. believe

I am already saved, I have eternal life.

I do not need to become born again again.

My job is to now walk worthy of God.

Is that difficult for someone who was dead in trespasses and sins without God and with out hope in this world?

If can be very difficult to achieve.

We have to work the truth into our minds, hearts and lifestyles in order to walk worthy of God.

How much work does that take?

Tons and we will never ever walk the perfect walk that Jesus Christ did in his complete obedience to God

 

[musterion]

1. The price has been paid but that does not exclude my participation in the reception of God's grace and mercy and forgiveness.

By faith alone, excluding all work, including the work of constant confession of the endless sins of the flesh. The Kingdom believers (not Body members) had to do that, per John, because they were saved and identified under a different economy of God.

2.. Yes, Jesus Christ did indeed die for all the sins of the world, however, that does not exclude the participation of the recipients to believe to receive God's goodness.

By faith alone, which is not a work but the exclusion of work.

3. Yes we are dead to sin, but unless you believe that 100% all the time

You err in ignoring the believer's perfected and permanent position of justification. Faith does not maintain justification, unless you're Catholic or some other cult with a false definition of justification (oh...right...forgot)

4. Yes, we are no longer under the law. Yet, God still spells out commandments in Paul's epistles. If neglect those commandments or refuse to live accordingly are we believingly obeying or sinning?

I agree that there are commands that the believer is expected to walk in by grace, but the loss of justification is nowhere EVER hinted at by Paul. Being dead to Law will accomplish that for you, if you'd just believe Paul's gospel.

5. If you can believe, all things (God promises, God's promises) are possible, ie, presently available to those who do what?

a. do nothing

b. believe

I am already saved, I have eternal life.

I do not need to become born again again.

My job is to now walk worthy of God.

Is that difficult for someone who was dead in trespasses and sins without God and with out hope in this world?

If can be very difficult to achieve.

We have to work the truth into our minds, hearts and lifestyles in order to walk worthy of God.

How much work does that take?

Tons and we will never ever walk the perfect walk that Jesus Christ did in his complete obedience to God

Are you asking a question here or making a statement?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do not believe you.

You don't believe me nor do you believe the Lord Jesus when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Tell us again why you think that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am not yet forgiven of the sins that I have not done because I have not yet done the sins I have not done, the price for my forgiveness has been paid for, but forgiveness depends on my confessing my sin to God then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me of all sins. I John 1:9

The LORD will not impute the sins of believers to them in regard to salvation:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

As far as your remarks about 1 John 1:9 those words were addressed to those who already possessed eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that all those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28). The words of John at 1 John 1:9 are in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord and not salvation.

 

[oatmeal]

The LORD will not impute the sins of believers to them in regard to salvation:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

As far as your remarks about 1 John 1:9 those words were addressed to those who already possessed eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that all those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28). The words of John at 1 John 1:9 are in regard to being in "fellowship" with the Lord and not salvation.

Yes, that is correct.

Evidently, I did not distinguish between salvation and fellowship clearly enough

Or to put it another way, between sonship and fellowship

Thank you for pointing out the need for clarification

 

[oatmeal]

By faith alone, excluding all work, including the work of constant confession of the endless sins of the flesh. The Kingdom believers (not Body members) had to do that, per John, because they were saved and identified under a different economy of God.



By faith alone, which is not a work but the exclusion of work.



You err in ignoring the believer's perfected and permanent position of justification. Faith does not maintain justification, unless you're Catholic or some other cult with a false definition of justification (oh...right...forgot)



I agree that there are commands that the believer is expected to walk in by grace, but the loss of justification is nowhere EVER hinted at by Paul. Being dead to Law will accomplish that for you, if you'd just believe Paul's gospel.



Are you asking a question here or making a statement?

Well, I can see by your reply that you have not yet learned to distinguish between "faith" and "believing"

God gives "faith" when we believe Romans 10:9-10 to receive salvation.

Faith is another word for the gift of salvation/holy spirit/eternal life

God does not exhort us to be lazy Christians but "not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord"

It takes work to maintain our fellowship, not sonship with God. That work includes confessing our sins,our errors after salvation can be cleansed.

God expects us to renew our minds which includes acknowledging our old man nature which we are to reckon dead, but that takes work. Until we reckon that old man dead totally and completely in all facets of our lives we will continue to err.

God does not count those errors against our salvation but it does mar our fellowhship our harmony with God and with His son and with fellow believers.

I John 1:3

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

why did they declare those things?

So that we MAY have fellowhship with who?

a. the Father and with his son and with the fellow believers

b. the Father and His son and with the Holy spirit and with the fellow believers

Well,

You err in ignoring the believer's perfected and permanent position of justification. Faith does not maintain justification, unless you're Catholic or some other cult with a false definition of justification (oh...right...forgot)

We are justified but that does not prevent our sinning in the flesh.

Have you not read Romans 7?

Are you so ignorant of scripture that you do not realize that Paul, the great apostle to whom God gave the revelation of the great mystery< still had problems with doing everything right?

How profoundly willfully you ignore scriptures so as to "justify" your unscriptural theology!

So, why not read Romans 7 and learn something so you don't have any excuse think your are a perfect believer.

Nor would it seem that you have read Romans 5

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Evidently, until a believer actually realizes that sin shall not have dominion over us can we believe to not have sin have dominion over us.

Shall we continue in sin? Whoa? Being justified does not mean that we do not sin, it means that even though we do sin, we were justified.

Our God given justification does not give us license to sin

Rather justification gives us the legal standing to be forgiven and to move in a godly direction immediately