Process Theology and Open Theology

[libevangelical]

One of my reponses to Process theology is that the doctine of the triune God makes God three worlds within Godself as well as three persons. I also wonder if Pinnocks' suggestion that God may be eternally embodied in some respect might be helpful in overcoming the claim that God cannot act coercively because God is exclusively immatterial Spirit. Could we conceive of Spirit in a less dualistic way which takes seriously God's interventing power or must we stick to a dualistic view of body and Spirit which requires the Supernatural to be telekenetic in it's actions upon material creation and thus anti-natural in the way which C. S. Lewis warns against? Or perhaps we need to combine a re-examination of the doctrine of creation out of nothing from a Biblical perspective with the Biblcial witness that angels are embodied creatures whose free will is in total harmony with God's and who serve as his intermediators?

 

[godrulz]

I guess we need to read the book. Let us, in the end, stick to THE BOOK and its authoritative revelation vs speculative reasoning.

 

[libevangelical]

Originally posted by godrulz

I guess we need to read the book. Let us, in the end, stick to THE BOOK and its authoritative revelation vs speculative reasoning.

This may be a good topic to discuss in more detail in a differnt thread but when we say "stick to the The Book" (as I would agree we ough to do) do we mean stick to an interpretation of the Bible which is out of harmony with the best scientific and philosophical thought or would the best scientific and philosophical thought help us to understand more clearly what truth is being communicated in Scripture and into what genre we might place the particular text communicating that truth?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by STONE

Not really.
God is not of the creation. The scripture makes it clear He is above all things.

Hmmm... bummer.... you are right there and could so easily get the point but you choose otherwsie.

The point is....
You questioned OV'ers for insinuating "all things" had limitations yet everyone limits "all things" when it get's right down to it.

God wasn't created in "all things"

Love wasn't created in "all things"

Justice, mercy, morality..... none of those things were created in "all things". All of those things were in existence prior to the creation of the universe and man.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight

Hmmm... bummer.... you are right there and could so easily get the point but you choose otherwsie.

The point is....
You questioned OV'ers for insinuating "all things" had limitations yet everyone limits "all things" when it get's right down to it.

God wasn't created in "all things"

Love wasn't created in "all things"

Justice, mercy, morality..... none of those things were created in "all things". All of those things were in existence prior to the creation of the universe and man.

Not choosing otherwise, only having a dialogue (not one that I really want to have, as the fruits of the discussion do not always edify).
Love is another issue as the scripture is clear "God is Love".
Here you're proposing goodness is eternal. Even assuming this to be true, is it possible for something that was eternal (by our limited definition) to have been created?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by STONE
Here you're proposing goodness is eternal. Even assuming this to be true, is it possible for something that was eternal (by our limited definition) to have been created?

Of course goodness must be eternal! For to say otherwise would being saying .... God wasn't always good.

You would assert that would you?

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight

Of course goodness must be eternal! For to say otherwise would being saying .... God wasn't always good.

You would assert that would you?

The question is: is it possible for something that has always existed to have been created?
-For example: has heaven always existed throughout time, is it outside of time, or when was it created?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by STONE

The question is: is it possible for something that has always existed to have been created?
-For example: has heaven always existed throughout time, is it outside of time, or when was it created?

Anything that has existed an eternity past by definition could not have been created.

I think now my point has been made regarding "all things".

P.S. Are you asserting that heaven has existed for an eternity past?

 

[Turbo]

You don't have to get very far in the Bible to learn otherwise.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Turbo

You don't have to get very far in the Bible to learn otherwise.

:chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Perhaps I am missing something but it sure does seem pretty obvious to me that God can control physical things. Nobody thinks it was Joshua that stopped the earth from spinning do they?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight

Anything that has existed an eternity past by definition could not have been created.

I think now my point has been made regarding "all things".

P.S. Are you asserting that heaven has existed for an eternity past?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Yet the scripture says heaven was created.

I'm sure you've not established your point yet.

 

[Turbo]

That verse does not say that the heavens have always existed.

Eternal can also mean eduring forever (in the future), never ceasing to exist.

Note that in that verse there is a contrast being drawn between the earthly house, which could be dissolved, and the heavenly house, which will never dissolve.

It is not talking about the creation (or origin) of the tabernacle, and it is not saying that the heaven was uncreated. It says heaven was "not made with hands." In other words, heaven is not man-made.

 

[billwald]

>Would a god who can exercise no direct control still be God?

Sure, why not? Is God the top dog who aplways has to get his way? Can't God simply be creative and curious?

 

[billwald]

>Of course goodness must be eternal!

What if evil is eternal and goodness is recent?

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Turbo

That verse does not say that the heavens have always existed.

Eternal can also mean eduring forever (in the future), never ceasing to exist.

Note that in that verse there is a contrast being drawn between the earthly house, which could be dissolved, and the heavenly house, which will never dissolve.

It is not talking about the creation (or origin) of the tabernacle, and it is not saying that the heaven was uncreated. It says heaven was "not made with hands." In other words, heaven is not man-made.

The only new point I see you making here is "eternal" does not mean "eternal".

e·ter·nal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-tûrnl)
adj.
Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless. See Synonyms at continual.
Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

n.
Something timeless, uninterrupted, or endless.
Eternal God.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Turbo

That verse does not say that the heavens have always existed.

Eternal can also mean eduring forever (in the future), never ceasing to exist.

Note that in that verse there is a contrast being drawn between the earthly house, which could be dissolved, and the heavenly house, which will never dissolve.

It is not talking about the creation (or origin) of the tabernacle, and it is not saying that the heaven was uncreated. It says heaven was "not made with hands." In other words, heaven is not man-made.



Originally posted by STONE

The only new point I see you making here is "eternal" does not mean "eternal".

I didn't say that. I said that "Eternal can also mean eduring forever (in the future), never ceasing to exist."

Of course eternal can also mean "without beginning or end." But it can also simply mean "without end." It depends on the context.

Look at the dictionary entry you pasted (I added the numbers):

e·ter·nal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-tûrnl)
adj.
1) Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2) Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3) Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
4) Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless. See Synonyms at continual.
5) Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

Does the afterlife have no beginning?

(By the way, I would dispute the use of the phrase "existing outside of time" in any discussion about theology. That idea is not Biblical. In fact, it's irrational in any context. But that's another issue.)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

To add to Turbo's point....

Even we are eternal yet we had a beginning.

God on the other hand, lived eternally into the past AND eternally into the future.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Knight

To add to Turbo's point....

Even we are eternal yet we had a beginning.

God on the other hand, lived eternally into the past AND eternally into the future.

The biblical concept is 'everlasting'. God experiences an everlasting duration of time. He is uncreated Creator, with no beginning and no end. He is eternal, which does not have to mean timeless.

We are everlasting, but had a beginning, but will live forever.

Time is unidirectional succession, sequence, duration experienced by any personal being.

 

[libevangelical]

Ever feel like you step into someone's conversation and starting talking about something no one is interested in?