Personal Freedom vs. Public Welfare

[way 2 go]

So you're saying that 100% of cases in Missouri since June 2 were caused by a few thousand criminals rioting, and 0% was caused by the rest

no


from the beginning of this - June 2
USA 1,812,125 cases 105,192 deaths = 5.8%

Aug 10
USA 5,058,464 cases 163,100 deaths = 3.2%

so new cases since June 2 = 3,246,339 and deaths since June 2 = 57,908 = 1.7%

 

[way 2 go]

far deadlier

no


CDC: Antibody tests show virus rates 10 times higher than reported

so if we take the numbers from post #301 and multiply by 10
we get

from the beginning of this to June 2
USA 18,121,250 cases 105,192 deaths = .58%

Aug 10
USA 50,058,464 cases 163,100 deaths = .32%

so new cases since June 2 = 32,463,390 and deaths since June 2 = 57,908 = .17%

 

[way 2 go]

That's a risk we run every day, every year, for every pathogen. You might as well say if he's right some of them will infect other people who will develop antibodies and add to the creation of what we should have been working towards all along - herd immunity.

herd immunity

 

[Gary K]

Does your *freedom* infringe on the life and well being of others? That would be my starting point.

Great topic.

Your starting point just condemned your own side. People have a right to protest, but they don't have a right to loot and to destroy the property and businesses of others thereby depriving not only business owners the right to support themselves but their employees also. And your side does that on a nightly basis. Where's your condemnation of those thugs and rioters? They are in violation of your own starting point.

 

[7djengo7]

it is not up to the individual to decide

What things are up to the individual to decide?

 

[ok doser]

What things are up to the individual to decide?

Whatever the government allows them

 

[chair]

Your starting point just condemned your own side. People have a right to protest, but they don't have a right to loot and to destroy the property and businesses of others thereby depriving not only business owners the right to support themselves but their employees also. And your side does that on a nightly basis. Where's your condemnation of those thugs and rioters? They are in violation of your own starting point.

"your own side"? - Typical American Identity Politics nonsense. Just because somebody thinks you ought to wear a mask, doesn't mean they support looting- or vote Democratic for that matter.

 

[Gary K]

Whatever the government allows them

Untrue. Our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution both validate that our rights come from God, not government. If rights come from government then government is the source of all goodness, not God. Government, of no matter what form, has always proven itself to be untrustworthy when push comes to shove. It can't be any other way for government is run by fallen human nature and as such looks out for itself and it's power, not for it's citizens. Government is selfish by nature. Thus it cannot be trusted with the rights of the individual. That's why our Constitution gave negative rights to citizens. Meaning that the rights we have exist outside of government and government is to be kept out of that area of people's lives.

Basically what you said is the very foundation of Marxism.

 

[ok doser]

Untrue. Our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution both validate that our rights come from God, not government. If rights come from government then government is the source of all goodness, not God. Government, of no matter what form, has always proven itself to be untrustworthy when push comes to shove. It can't be any other way for government is run by fallen human nature and as such looks out for itself and it's power, not for it's citizens. Government is selfish by nature. Thus it cannot be trusted with the rights of the individual. That's why our Constitution gave negative rights to citizens. Meaning that the rights we have exist outside of government and government is to be kept out of that area of people's lives.

Basically what you said is the very foundation of Marxism.

:thumb:

Should have made it clearer - I was presenting that as an example of Chair's position.

 

[ok doser]

 

[chair]

:thumb:

Should have made it clearer - I was presenting that as an example of Chair's position.

No, you were misrepresenting my position.

Face the facts: Governments, including the US government, both State and Federal, limit your freedoms to some degree. Try not paying your taxes, or running red lights, and you'll see what I mean. This pretense as if "Americans are FREE, and nobody else is!" is nonsense. Maybe Americans have less limitations than citizens of some countries, but totally free without any limits?- it doesn't exist.

 

[ok doser]

Try ... running red lights, and you'll see what I mean.

Yesterday I ran a red light. Nobody was harmed. Nobody was inconvenienced. Nobody was even aware that I did it besides myself.

Who was harmed by my decision yesterday to run a red light?

Nobody.

How just is a law designed to punish me for an action in which nobody is harmed?

 

[chair]

Yesterday I ran a red light. Nobody was harmed. Nobody was inconvenienced. Nobody was even aware that I did it besides myself.

Who was harmed by my decision yesterday to run a red light?

Nobody.

How just is a law designed to punish me for an action in which nobody is harmed?

And yet, in your "Free" United States, you can be arrested for running that red light. Why do you think that is so?

 

[ok doser]

And yet, in your "Free" United States, you can be arrested for running that red light. Why do you think that is so?

How just is a law designed to punish me for an action from which nobody was harmed?

 

[chair]

And yet, in your "Free" United States, you can be arrested for running that red light. Why do you think that is so?

 

[ok doser]

If you had answered my question, the answer to your question would have been clear. Clearly many of the laws in America are unjust

 

[User Name]

If you had answered my question, the answer to your question would have been clear. Clearly many of the laws in America are unjust

Only a moron would say that traffic laws, such as the one against running red lights, is "unjust."

 

[Arthur Brain]

Only a moron would say that traffic laws, such as the one against running red lights, is "unjust."

Or driving while drunk.

 

[ok doser]

Or driving while drunk.

Who was harmed when I drove home drunk safely?

chair

Did you ever answer this one?




And a corollary - How just is a law that seeks to punish me for engageing in an action in which no one was harmed?

 

[7djengo7]

OK, so here's the basic question:
What rights do Americans have?

The same rights that non-Americans have:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.​