Paul's gospel started late....

Lon

Well-known member
Right, and who's the "our" there? Who is that? "Our" is a first person plural. It's goes with "we" and "us", we and us are our. So, "He was wounded for OUR transgressions"—Paul says, "Christ died for OUR sins"—Isaiah 53 also says, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering FOR sin"—Paul says, "Christ died FOR our sins".

Is the OUR there just the houses of Israel and Judah, since this concerns their New Covenant? which it does, since this is their prophet Isaiah.
Yes, just Israel 'and' gentiles who converted, at this venture. It was only through the Abrahamic Covenant that 'all nations would be blessed.' At the time, that meant conversion.
Then why do you empower Luther to set the table of contents in your Bible?
Look how your mind works with the presupposition: You are stuck with a go-between authority. We are not at all at the mercies of Luther. We all have internet and minds that work just fine. The 'authority' wall has fallen.
What qualifies Luther to wield that power, according to you? What gives him that right? Show me how that power, which is a power which belongs to God alone, to set the table of contents for His own Book—is entrusted to Luther? Where's the process that does this? Was it a private revelation, only given to Luther in secret? that he had this power?
Luther simply read the scriptures and for himself, eschewed "Bel and the Dragon" for instance. Why? His Bible, his choice. You are thinking 'rights' as if the RC has them. It can be turned around: "What gave them the right?" Rather, a Protestant/Evangelical will do the work his or her own self as they read the scriptures. It is of much more import to 'read' them than argue over them. There are 66 books in the shorter version: plenty enough to keep one studying and learning for a lifetime. How often have you read Leviticus? I have favorite books I've read and reread many times. I have read the Catholic/coptic/Greek Orthodox Bible. I don't believe I've gained any special insight, especially as I've only one Apostle-to-the-gentiles. The rest is good history and relationship stories with the Father, Spirit, and Son. It fleshes out the pictures, like coloring in a coloring book. The black and white was already there.
I'm not questioning btw, whether he made the right choice, do you understand? That is aside from what I'm saying. I'm saying, he exercised power—how? By what right? Based on what? Changing the table of contents, especially through deleting some books, is gigantic power.

Wouldn't you agree?
Difference: We ratify his work, aren't slaves to it. If you only had a N.T., nay even just Paul's letters, you'd understand the gospel and your need of relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, Spirit, and Father. "What is needed" is the impetus for reading scriptures. I ask every new believer to simply read the gospels, Acts, and Paul's letters three times through, then Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs. After that, they can be on their own and choose books or read the whole Bible through.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Paul's gospel was preached in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:15 KJV — And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
1) This is regular dispensationalism. Mid Acts disagrees, to a point. While certainly there are elements to differences in dispensationalism that tie together, Mid Acts separates.
2) Genesis 3 is absolutely a promise of Jesus and is the same in Mid Acts as far as the good news(s). Realize that Mid Acts focusses more on 'what is different' than what elements necessarily are the same (I.E. the Lord Jesus Christ and His saving work).
3) You aren't in real disagreement over the promise, but rather on something specific: Paul's gospel was different especially in the fact that "Grace alone (granted Faith) saves. It wasn't known before Paul.
 

Derf

Well-known member
1) This is regular dispensationalism. Mid Acts disagrees, to a point. While certainly there are elements to differences in dispensationalism that tie together, Mid Acts separates.
2) Genesis 3 is absolutely a promise of Jesus and is the same in Mid Acts as far as the good news(s). Realize that Mid Acts focusses more on 'what is different' than what elements necessarily are the same (I.E. the Lord Jesus Christ and His saving work).
3) You aren't in real disagreement over the promise, but rather on something specific: Paul's gospel was different especially in the fact that "Grace alone (granted Faith) saves. It wasn't known before Paul.
It wasn't verbalized in the same way, but that doesn't mean grace was absent in the other forms of the gospel. That makes us look at what the good news in each case is all about. If salvation is by works some of the time, and not by works other times, then I will have to admit that there are multiple gospels, and Paul was wrong to anathematize them all. But Peter tells us that is not the case when he said
Acts 15:11 KJV — But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

If the Jews are saved through grace EVEN AS THE GENTILES ARE SAVED, then whether it was verbalized the same or not, the mechanism of salvation is still the same, which means, if the good news is about how to be saved, they are the same gospel.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Right, and who's the "our" there? Who is that? "Our" is a first person plural. It's goes with "we" and "us", we and us are our. So, "He was wounded for OUR transgressions"—Paul says, "Christ died for OUR sins"—Isaiah 53 also says, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering FOR sin"—Paul says, "Christ died FOR our sins".

Is the OUR there just the houses of Israel and Judah, since this concerns their New Covenant? which it does, since this is their prophet Isaiah.
The prophets didn’t belong to the Jews, but God used them to speak to all of mankind.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.​
Then why do you empower Luther to set the table of contents in your Bible? What qualifies Luther to wield that power, according to you? What gives him that right? Show me how that power, which is a power which belongs to God alone, to set the table of contents for His own Book—is entrusted to Luther? Where's the process that does this? Was it a private revelation, only given to Luther in secret? that he had this power?

I'm not questioning btw, whether he made the right choice, do you understand? That is aside from what I'm saying. I'm saying, he exercised power—how? By what right? Based on what? Changing the table of contents, especially through deleting some books, is gigantic power.

Wouldn't you agree?
Sorry, I can’t agree with your “facts” concerning Luther and his role. For one thing, God would not allow it.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
It wasn't verbalized in the same way, but that doesn't mean grace was absent in the other forms of the gospel. That makes us look at what the good news in each case is all about. If salvation is by works some of the time, and not by works other times, then I will have to admit that there are multiple gospels, and Paul was wrong to anathematize them all. But Peter tells us that is not the case when he said
Acts 15:11 KJV — But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

If the Jews are saved through grace EVEN AS THE GENTILES ARE SAVED, then whether it was verbalized the same or not, the mechanism of salvation is still the same, which means, if the good news is about how to be saved, they are the same gospel.
Yes. It was never by works, and that’s the whole point. The other apostles were wrong to demand circumcision, and Paul put a stop to that requirement. I think the confusion came when the kingdom program was put on hold, but the Lord had a man in mind, a Jew of the highest order. It took God sending Peter a vision regarding Cornelius before Peter understood. So cool, actually.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Rom 11:6 (AKJV/PCE)​
(11:6) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.​
 

Derf

Well-known member
Rom 11:6 (AKJV/PCE)​
(11:6) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.​
You're suggesting, I suppose, that "no more of" means that at one time it was of works. I don't think that phrase means that.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You're suggesting, I suppose, that "no more of" means that at one time it was of works. I don't think that phrase means that.
And you’re correct. Men were never saved by their works. The closest we see are these three and it was their obedient faith that saved them.

Ezekiel 14:14​
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.​
Paul also makes it clear here. Man may glory in his works, but not before God.

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.​
 
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