Right Divider
Body part
Then why have you been having such a hard time with what I've been telling you?
What is "this age of grace"?
When did "this age of grace" begin?
Paul did not write Hebrews; we do not know who did
- Thread starter Right Divider
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When did "this age of grace" begin?
I agree that God has in a real sense "set aside" the nation of Israel until the "fullness of the Gentiles" is completed.
Right Divider
Body part
Why don't you answer the last two questions?
I did. If you want you could prod me to further discussion by phrasing your questions differently as a way to uproot what may seem to you to be evasive answers on my part. I'm just suggesting.
Right Divider
Body part
No, you didn't.
You mentioned "the age of grace". I asked what it is and when it started.
I would also mention that the Bible doesn't contain a reference to such a thing.
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I think what the author meant by the term "the age of grace" is the dispensation of the age of the Christian church we are now living in. Like you, I do not subscribe to the term "age of grace." I believe God chose the Jews in the OT to be His special people through which He dealt with the entire human race for 2500 years from Abraham to Pentecost. The Christian Church can trace its origin on earth to Pentecost and Christian Churches are now God's ministers to the rest of the world during this time period Jesus referred to as the times of the Gentiles.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Right Divider
Body part
What author? You posted it.
Why did you use the term then?
God did not stop with His people at Pentecost. Pentecost was lawfully required Jewish feast day.
That is completely false. The "church which is His body" did NOT begin on that lawfully required Jewish feast day.
We are NOT in the "times of the gentiles". We are in the time of the dispensation of the grace of God.
When Luke wrote this, God has NOT YET revealed the dispensation of His grace. That came in Acts 9.
You sure? Pretty sure most of the New Testament was written long after Paul's conversion, with Galatians being the first book written in the New Testament...
Do you mean, "when Jesus said this", instead?
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, I meant the later.
Gotta stay on your toes, brother!
Right Divider
Body part
Thanks for checking on me
No, I simply quoted from the source you posted. He was not my guy but yours.
You criticize me for using the term "age of grace," a term I picked out of your article, and then you yourself refer to the "dispensation of His grace." I think we are close, but not entirely agreed.
Right Divider
Body part
OK, I see that he did. I'm not a fan of the term as I believe that it creates some confusion.
The Bible clearly shows the dispensation of His grace.
Eph 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
The problem that I have with you is that you cannot tell the difference between BEFORE this dispensation and DURING.
This dispensation (of the grace of God) did not BEGIN until God gave it to Paul (which is well AFTER the lawfully required Jewish feast day).
Demon possessed perverts say he is to discredit the other things Paul said which are in direct contention with the gospel of grace. The devil appears as an angel of light.
First is the author of Hebrews, who likely learned from the 12. Perhaps he was from the sect that believed in Acts 15. It's only a guess by us.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him
And then what Paul says about his gospel.
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
First is the author of Hebrews, who likely learned from the 12. Perhaps he was from the sect that believed in Acts 15. It's only a guess by us.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him
And then what Paul says about his gospel.
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
I present an example of a wolf in sheep's clothing. The devil appearing as an angel of light. Paul is excluded as the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to him directly. The author did not see the Lord Jesus Christ, in the flesh or otherwise. More importantly, the doctrine is about the salvation of the nation of Israel, who is looking forward to salvation if they hold fast. It doesn't matter who wrote it. If you want to guess, guess a member of the circumcision from Acts 15 that believes. And heard Paul's gospel, and Peter stand up for it.
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Lon
Well-known member
Not the right thread, but help: Did the Jews have to accept grace, or did they yet have to keep the law as Christians? Basically clarification and a bit of the unfolding story and ty.
Bladerunner
Active member
They had no choice (as do we) in the matter of God's Grace..It is a gift and has been since the foundations of the earth. They were expected to follow the laws (all 630 or so) but in the end, the believe in GOD and His Grace was what saved them, They souls resided in Abram's Bosom until Jesus tool them to heaven just before His Resurrection.
But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 7:17-24 - New King James Version
Live as You Are Called - But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised...
If you were called under the New Covenant (and no one is, today), remain under the New Covenant.
If you were called under grace, remain in grace, don't keep the law.
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6:14 - New King James Version
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Right Divider
Body part
God has many ways of expressing grace to mankind.
Israel needed faith and works.
The body of Christ needs faith without works.
Israel needed faith and works.
The body of Christ needs faith without works.
Rom 11:5-6 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (11:6) And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
There is a very good reason that Paul says this:Rom 1:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
But Paul does say, "I pray to God that ye do no evil" 2nd Corinthians 13:7, plus Colossians chapter 3, so it's not like Paul isn't concerned with our objective behaviors, it's one of his themes to care about what we do.