Nang
TOL Subscriber
I have a long list of questions and suggestions on this subject, but I dare not ask them, being a "weaker vessel and subject to deception." :shut:
So, please carry on . . . on my behalf, dear sir. :carryon:
Nang
ECT Our triune God
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
I have a long list of questions and suggestions on this subject, but I dare not ask them, being a "weaker vessel and subject to deception." :shut:
So, please carry on . . . on my behalf, dear sir. :carryon:
Nang
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
It's merely a converstational "mechanism" of comparison to illustrate a point to those who can't fathom the threeness is NOT multiple hypostases (or any other singular triplicate semantic in its place).
A trascendent ousia; a transcendent hypostasis, two-fold processed; and a prosopon as the express image OF THAT hypostasis.
NOT three hypostases. But getting others off their lock-down is beyond daunting.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Of course. I'm not a Modalist. The Father is not the Son is not the Father (are not the Holy Spirit).
There is most definitely a distinction between them. Just not as three hypostases (or any alternate or equivalent singular semantic in triplicate).
God is a transcendent ousia; a transcendent hypostasis, two-fold processed; and a prosopon (the express image OF THAT hypostasis).
You're not. I attribute that to cognitive dissonance and the overall O/orthodox indoctrination process that emphasizes concept and shallow summary over true understanding.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Or Triadism or Tritheism. Either via believing and asserting F/S/HS each have a sentient center of consciousness and volition.
Exactly, and a number of other "sloppy" issues that are foundational to the Rhema by which faith comes. It can be salvific, though I don't prescribe the individual when/where/who of that as it's beyond my pay grade.
Indeed. It's exponentially too literally and/or conceptually anthropomorphic.
And the Greek isn't represented in scripture in triplicate. So that's the core issue, besides the singular omission during formulation.
A good start, perhaps. But no singular semantic in triplicate will suffice, and any variance is an overhaul of O/orthodoxy.
That's why I spent 15 years doing that, even though it wasn't my intention when I started the search. I just originally wanted to scripturally account for why I had been lost as a Multihypostatic Trinitarian for 28 years.
Now I know exactly why; and I know the truth of God's constitution and Cosmogony, etc.
Scripture clearly tells us of the one God and Father. The hypostasis certainly can't be the ousia. The Multihypostatic Trinity is a paradox unto itself. And that's not my fault, but I sure take the heat for it.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Have you ever considered that others may be taxed beyond reasonable measure by your incessant misrepresentations and false accusations?
I suggest a different arrangement of the eternal and divine Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while avoiding any forms or sub-forms of ANY declared heresy in church history, including all those you've charged me with.
And I do so with challenges that you can't answer, just as nobody else can answer them. So the resort is always obfuscatory and condescending. Not once have you attempted to engage in actual discussion.
I'm not deterred, and I won't be swayed. I was lost as a Multihypostatic Trinitarian for 28 years, and I know exactly why. You can't drag me back to the mystery of self-refuting error of multiple hypostases.
So in the end, I'm not budging off the truth to return to any degree of prelest. And it doesn't matter how hateful or aggressively dismissive you or anyone else is.
Nobody can provide three hypostases from the inspired text. Nobody.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
As we discussed before, it is never a good idea to try to dissect or understand the Godhead by earthly observation. (Excepting for Rom 1:20KJV) We, on the other hand, are understood by God and His revelational observations reveal some things about Him in that process.
Do you think that, in Scripture, any distinctions are revealed with F/S/HS specifically with regard to 'personality'? By that I mean; emotion, etc., not office.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
OK, I'll let you get away with a 'conversational mechanism'. It is quite valid used as such.
However, perhaps we should also admit that this same type (not exact) of tool is employed as a part of the progressive revelation superintended by God.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I'd first have to clarify specifically (probably more for others than for you, necessarily) that "Godhead" is either Theiotes (as in Romans 1:20) or Theotes (as in Colossians 2:9). The former is the outward and observable demonstration of Divinity while the latter is the inner attributes and characteristics themselves.
Gramatically, both are singular; and Theotes would correspond to any equivalent description or assocation with what would be considered "personality" for Theos (God), and that means there's only one.
This is really the core of the issue, so I'm glad you've struck upon it yourself for me to respond rather than me initiating the point myself. Even in the Multihypostatic Trinity doctrine, the hypostases aren't distinct in this manner, just as they don't each have individuated consciousness and volition of minds/wills.
The hypostases were originally and intentionally limited to being substances of the singular essence, with no individual "personality" attributes assigned. No personhoodS. No personalitIES. Both Theiotes and Theotes are singular, so there can't be multiple personalities or personhoods in that context at all (thankfully, God is not in any category of schizophrenia).
So it's this declining shift of conceptual understanding that has given us the pervasive conceptualization of the hypostases in extremely anthropomorphic English terminology AND understanding.
Before installing the Latin personae and trinitas as the enduring watchwords of God's composition, Tertullian had previously referred to F/S/HS as aspects, forms, or modes. But in his 213AD treatise to refute Monarchianism, he abandoned those terms because the Modalists had employed them. And persona/e was only utilized to translate hypostasis because substantia was already assigned.
That's where the whole modern semantical problem started, while the further translation into English as "person/s" has greatly exaggerated that even more. "Personhood" is relative to prosopon (face/person/presence), which is the tangible outward presentation/appearance of the intangible inward and underlying reality of existence (hypostasis). The prosopon is the express image OF the hypostasis; just as the hypostasis underlies the ousia.
But the real problem is that employing multiple hypostases was a compensation for omitting the central fixture of creation, which is eternity as the endless time property of the third heaven; AND mistakenly assigning God's attribute of eternALity also as eternity. One is eternal with no beginning or end (God); while the other is everlasting, having a beginning but no end (eternity). The appropriate noun for eternal is eternALity, while eternity is the noun for the endless time property of the third heaven.
This is the distinction between aidios (eternal - no beginning or end) and aionios (everlasting - a beginning with no end <or to the end of an aion or aions>). Thanks to vairous ancients AND the modern Open Theists and other Process Theology, this has all been skewed and screwed around to postulate various bogus degrees of durative nature and the like. It's all absurd.
Aidios can refer to anything that is aionios, but not the inverse, necessarily. Everlasting (aionios) life for us can an inception in the sense of its relative onset within our finite physical life; but that life at the source itself is eternal (aidios). But since so few (if any) really comprehend the true applicational meanings, the semantics get skewed in a way that actually affects etymology over time because of such misuse and misapplication in theological/philosophical postulates/hypotheses.
Aidios refers to only two things in scripture. The dunamis and Theiotes of God, and the Jude 1:6 reference (that is explained by understanding the afterlife and gehenna, etc.).
God is eternal and uncreated. The third heaven, with each of its time/space/matter properties, was created. The endless time property of the third heaven had an inception and is only everlasting. There was never a demarcation between these, "labeling" them both as eternity and giving the illusion of an "eternity past", but inactuality the only eternity past is God's inherent transcendent ontological existence alone.
All historical God-model formulations were done sharing this central omission of distinction. That's why the processions of the Logos and Pneuma are misrepresented, and the multiple hypostases were postulated (and ultimately ratified as O/orthodoxy) to compensate for the vaguery of the "gloss". And nobody really dares attempt to correct it, presuming infallibility of the dialectic process of the ANFs and an idealistic view that there was no socio-political element to the whole era of said formulation.
Most who marginally identify and reject the paradox of the Multihypostatic Trinity doctrine just migrate to one of the established heresies like Sabellianism, Arianism, Unitarianism, or one of the many others. I refused to accept any of the errors, preferring to reconcile them all to the central truth that has never been presented.
All the attempted and postulated corrections have been/are within the boundaries of the Multihypostatic structure, and that's the thing in need of correction. But without recognizing the demarcation of a created eternity as the endless time property of the third heaven, the processions of the Logos and Pneuma aren't accounted for scripturally, but merely inferred into existence as multiple hypostases and declared eisegetically.
Bottom line... Orthodoxy formulated the processions of the Logos and Pneuma as within the alleged sameness of the two "kinds" of eternity; the one "kind" being eternal and realtive to God Himself, and the other "kind" being only everlasting and relative to the third heaven. The processions were from one to the other; from God's inherent eternALity into the created eternity.
This latter "kind" of eternity was never designated as part of the creative act, instead "glossing" it to be some nebulous continuation of God within some state of being without accounting for its inception or real existence and creation. An UNcreated eternity with a beginning.
Thus, the Multihypostatic Trinity formulation process begins AFTER the processions, but then attempts to include them in some way relative to both "kinds" of eternity because the creation of the endless time property of the third heaven was "glossed".
Thus, the Logos and Pneuma are inferred and interjected as the necessary "threeness" by declaring them to be multiple hypostases to retain Monotheism while accounting for what is postulated as a horizonal plurality in a demarcation of only two elements: an UNcreated (two-fold) eternity as God, and a created temporality of the cosmos.
But the omitted demarcation is the gloss of not accounting for the second "kind" of eternity as having a beginning and being created. Thus, compared to God and His inherent transcendent ontological attribute of eternALity, eternity is merely everlasting because it had an inception at creation like all else that is not God Himself.
The singular hypostasis of God was spoken/breathed forth as the two-fold singular procession of the Logos and Pneuma external to God; the latter as omnipresence concurrently filling both created realms as they were instantiated into existence, while the former was God's finite point of personal presence. And the ousia was co-inherent in the procession, being the Self (Soul) of God conjoined to the now-externalized Spirit.
No createness for the eternal Logos and Pneuma; no emanation, exudation, or effluence for creation. God's OWN Logos pierced to the dividing asunder of His OWN Spirit out from His OWN Self (Soul). EXpressed and EXhaled when/as God created both realms by His Word and His Spirit.
One transcendent ousia, underlied by a hypostasis. Then that two-fold singular hypostasis processed into both realms of existence. Then the Logos taking on a human nature while being Incarnate as Theanthropos, which is the prosopon (person/face/presence), also having a human rational soul.
The whole key to understanding this is the Rhema. Nobody has any real comprehension of what the Rhema is. It's the thing spoken ABOUT. The subject matter. The content. The substance.
There is no Logos without Rhema. There must be a subject matter to speak about. The Rhema is the subject matter of God's unabridged and exhaustive divine substance. He spoke the entirety of His divinity forth external to Himself, and that Logos was externalized to be the Son. The eternality of the Logos is the eternality of the Son, and they are coterminous.
Procession is not inception, so the Logos had no beginning (nor did the Pneuma) and is not created. The distinction between God and His Logos is that the hypostasis is economically distinct from the transcendent hypostasis. It is NOT a different substance, because the transcendent hypostasis is still also transcendent. Neither the essence nor substance of God is wholly contained or constrained within the created realms, though God fills all of creation with His presence without being ontologically a part of any tangible creation.
And since He embodied His own Logos in flesh as the Son, it's important to realize He came to reveal Himself rather than conceal Himself in mystery. In EOC terms, we can never know Him in His ontology (essence), but we CAN and MUST know Him in His economy (energies). He condescended to creation for just such a purpose; and to graft us in as partakers of His divine nature (NOT man being divine).
The Incarnate Logos had a rational human soul. Though it was a perfect representation of God as the express image of His hypostasis, there were certainly distinctions. Humanity is not divinity.
The Holy Spirit is God's own Spirit, just as ours is; so there is no distinction of "personality" to the Holy Spirit because there is only one Theotes. But the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ, so that Spirit is one with/as the quickening Spirit that is Christ as Theanthropos, which includes any human factors.
The Logos and Pneuma are the processed two-fold singular hypostasis into the created realms. The Spirit bears whatever distinction the human rational soul encompasses of the ascended Christ.
There's a much more trichotomous nature to God than what is typically considered triune. But nothing in the economy of creation renders God's inherent essence mutable or in violation of any of His other innate ontology.
In the very specific manner outlined above, God is Spirit-Soul-Body (Embodiment) of One Divinity (Theos is Pneuma-Psuche-Soma of Heis Theotes).
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The Trinity as we know him is one, and, he is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Here are Catholicism's definitions for some words. I think I could understand what you mean if you show me the distinction between what you're saying, and what this says:
| The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others. CCC252 |
I'm confused with how you're explaining the Monohypostatic Trinity, and hoped you could use the Catholic Church's definitions so that I could compare and contrast what you're saying with what they are saying.
Thank you
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Yep. Just not as multiple hypostases.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Here are Catholicism's definitions for some words. I think I could understand what you mean if you show me the distinction between what you're saying, and what this says:
The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
CCC252
I'm confused with how you're explaining the Monohypostatic Trinity, and hoped you could use the Catholic Church's definitions so that I could compare and contrast what you're saying with what they are saying.
Thank you
I'm very simply saying that the distinction of F/S/HS is not as hypostases. And hypostasis/es is not "person/s". The simplistic defintion of substance/hypostasis is grossly incomplete and insufficient.
Hypostasis is a compound of hupo (under) and stasis (to stand). It means to stand under, and represents the true underlying objective reality of existence.
I don't disagree with the defintion of hypostasis, even if that definition is woefully misrepresented above. It's about the quantity, for which scripture gives us only one.
The conundrum for you and others is more "vertical" than that because of your "horizontal" understanding. F/S/HS aren't represented by one semantic in triplicate.
You don't recognize that God created eternity. It's the endless time property of the created third heaven. The procession of the Logos and the Pneuma was from God into eternity, and that was God's two-fold singular hypostasis, not two additional hypostases.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Almost certainly... Lightfoot, Trench, Augustine...but not decisive due to the rarity of 'theotes' in literature. It does, however, support the deity (divinity?) of Christ which is Paul's thrust.
That they are singular is not surprising considering they represent an abstract (in this case infinite) mass concept. Eng. example of nouns with no plural: "information" or "cutlery". In fact, singularity with no historical data on a possible plural for either of these words militates against the idea that singularity is in view.
I respectfully suggest this is a non-issue in the same way that it is unimportant that these words are both feminine gender.
But this, of course, is the meaning of 1John 5:7KJV (textual criticism concerning origin notwithstanding) καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν - and these, the three, agree/coexist in one. There are three (of something).
Distinction can be thought of as actual within Deity, or as our understanding of actual within Deity. If our understanding of actual differs from actual in its completeness, it is a result of finite vs. infinite, and is not necessarily incorrect as far as it goes.
But it is not for us to 'distinguish between' but rather acknowledge distinction. This the ANFs have done faithfully; no matter the consequences. In addition, distinctiveness is extremely difficult to detect, in the case of the Trinity, because total/infinite agreement exists. Were we not alerted to it, we would likely miss it. Yet, Scripture invites us to acknowledge, not observational distinctions (as in differences), but distinction - period.
The garden soliloquy is a prime example of distinction. He and the Father 'are' one, yet He prays to the Father. There is undeniable 'distinction in oneness' within revelation.
Could not agree more.
This is a good place to stop for now. The posts are getting too long; but your input is terrific.
Just don't answer this one too quickly before I get a chance to reply to the rest. "My brain hurts!" :hammer:
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George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
I don't actually disagree with you on this, except for your choice of sentence structure, which I am sure is an oversight.
Technically it is impossible to know the Trinity as it is an abstract designation, and this designation is not a 'him'. It is God that we can know as/is one.
PPS is actually helping us to get our facts in line with the historic theology to which we ascribe. We can only understand his objections if we know what we believe.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
This is the oddity that plagues the Orthodox doctrine. All personal pronouns for F/S/HS are adamantly declared to specify "persons". Yet those same personal pronouns are utilized for the alleged being as well.
So all usage of personal pronouns as an apologetic is disannulled. Both "sides" of the doctrine must be proven. Personal pronouns can't differentiate between persons and beings, so they're a moot point.
That's about 80-90% of most MultiHypoTrin apologetics, which is purely inference. It's actually self-refuting. One cannot demand personal pronouns to be exculsively "persons" and then disregard their identification of the one being as well.
And that's generally one of the first lines of reasoning and defense. "Well, F/S/HS are all he/him/his. What else could they be?" The answer is "beings". Personal pronouns designate either without specifying either. It's a toss-up.
And there's nothing whatsoever to distinguish between persons and beings. Without that clear exegetical distinction, there IS no MultiHypoTrin doctrine. It really is an inference-based doctrine will shifty semantics. Theos can then be any/all of the "persons", yet be a "him". That's ridiculous.
Scripture speaks of God's will, not God's willS. And scripture gives us several examples of "the one God and Father". The list just becomes almost endless of the unresolvable paradoxes pertaining to the alleged three hypostases.
The tired tag-line of "one what, three whos" is no better. Now we have a "what" be referred to as a "he" all through scripture. To someone outside the bubble, it becomes more and more absurd and maddening; and not because of a lack of understanding the doctrine.
Indeed I am. And so few have any real understanding of what they purport to believe. You are a rarity and a blessing. I prefer hashing out details rather than adversarial debate with defensive posturing.
All of this honors God if it can be done with a pure heart searching out the mystery.
TRINITY EVIDENCE FALSE
Everything that the trinitarians claims makes Jesus God. Are the same things we can do also. And it doesnt make us God. Trinitarians have tried to form a belief on circumstantial verses, not factual verses. And they base their belief on principles that are not even in the Word of God. A Believer bases all their beliefs on what is written, not on what is not written.
Matt 20:22-23
22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."
Matt 23:23-24
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)
Circumstantial Verses
Circumstantial verses are verses that can be used either way. As in this one,(My Lord and my God) The word and can be used to separate Lord and God, it can also be used to bring them together as one. Now as John was addressing Jesus at this point John knew and believed that God was also in Jesus. So in his attempt to address them both he was addressing "My Lord Jesus Christ, and also my God the Father that dwells in You.
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
Factual Verses
In the factual verses, they can only be taken one way, with no variations. So the carnal mind has to pervert the factual verses in order to believe the circumstantial verses. The factual verses explain the circumstantial verses. As in this one, "One God the Father". The Father is the one God. But if you read one you see there is also one Lord Jesus Christ, which explains why John said it the way he did.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
THE DIVINITY(DEITY) OF CHRIST
We can have the same divine nature that Jesus had. God working through us.
Acts 17:29-30
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(NKJ)
2 Pet 1:4
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
ONLY GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED (WE CAN AND WILL BE WORSHIPPED)
Rev 3:9
9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie-- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
THREE IN ONE GOD, ONE GOD IN THREE
Everything that separates trinitarians from Christians comes from out side of the scriptures. Trintiy, deity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
The apostles even said. Yet for us there is one God the Father.
Christians believe there is one God the Father.
Trinitarians always start with questions, this is how they deceive.
2 Tim 2:23
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
(NKJ)
THE 'ARE ONE' DELUSION
WE ARE ONE WITH CHRIST AND GOD AND HOLY SPIRIT
IF JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE OF THE ONENESS-THEN WE ARE GOD. NOT SO!
John 10:30
30 "I and My Father are one."
(NKJ)
John 17:22
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
I Jn 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Cor 10:16-17
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
1 Cor 3:7-11
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:5
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
John 17:20-23
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 10:29-30
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 "I and My Father are one."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 6:17
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Matt 10:32-33
32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
1 Cor 11:1
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 Cor 1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Phil 3:16
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
2 Cor 4:13-14
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
(NKJ)
xxOneness is all about agreement. John 17-22 Jesus prayed that we may be one the same way that Jesus and God are one. Jesus submitted to every Word of God that shows His agreement. We are to submit to every Word of God to show our agreement.
Jesus prayed John 17-22 that we "are one" with Jesus and God the Father. And that doesnt make us God any more than it made Jesus God to be one with God.
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
Only People Who Worship In The Flesh Believe Jesus Is God
On Ro 9
Paul is talking about having great sorrow and grief over those who worship in the flesh.According to the flesh he could even wish he were cut off from Christ. Because those who worship in the flesh believe that Christ came and that Christ is the eternally blessed God.But as Paul says they are not all Israel who are from Israel nor are they children of Abraham seed. Those who worship in the flesh and believe this are not children of God.
Rom 9:1-8
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
xxx The only trinity in the Word of God is the dragon, devil,satan.
Rev 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)
Everything that the trinitarians claims makes Jesus God. Are the same things we can do also. And it doesnt make us God. Trinitarians have tried to form a belief on circumstantial verses, not factual verses. And they base their belief on principles that are not even in the Word of God. A Believer bases all their beliefs on what is written, not on what is not written.
Matt 20:22-23
22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."
Matt 23:23-24
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)
Circumstantial Verses
Circumstantial verses are verses that can be used either way. As in this one,(My Lord and my God) The word and can be used to separate Lord and God, it can also be used to bring them together as one. Now as John was addressing Jesus at this point John knew and believed that God was also in Jesus. So in his attempt to address them both he was addressing "My Lord Jesus Christ, and also my God the Father that dwells in You.
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
Factual Verses
In the factual verses, they can only be taken one way, with no variations. So the carnal mind has to pervert the factual verses in order to believe the circumstantial verses. The factual verses explain the circumstantial verses. As in this one, "One God the Father". The Father is the one God. But if you read one you see there is also one Lord Jesus Christ, which explains why John said it the way he did.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
THE DIVINITY(DEITY) OF CHRIST
We can have the same divine nature that Jesus had. God working through us.
Acts 17:29-30
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(NKJ)
2 Pet 1:4
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
ONLY GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED (WE CAN AND WILL BE WORSHIPPED)
Rev 3:9
9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie-- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
THREE IN ONE GOD, ONE GOD IN THREE
Everything that separates trinitarians from Christians comes from out side of the scriptures. Trintiy, deity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
The apostles even said. Yet for us there is one God the Father.
Christians believe there is one God the Father.
Trinitarians always start with questions, this is how they deceive.
2 Tim 2:23
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
(NKJ)
THE 'ARE ONE' DELUSION
WE ARE ONE WITH CHRIST AND GOD AND HOLY SPIRIT
IF JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE OF THE ONENESS-THEN WE ARE GOD. NOT SO!
John 10:30
30 "I and My Father are one."
(NKJ)
John 17:22
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
I Jn 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Cor 10:16-17
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
1 Cor 3:7-11
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:5
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
John 17:20-23
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 10:29-30
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 "I and My Father are one."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 6:17
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Matt 10:32-33
32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
1 Cor 11:1
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 Cor 1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Phil 3:16
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
2 Cor 4:13-14
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
(NKJ)
xxOneness is all about agreement. John 17-22 Jesus prayed that we may be one the same way that Jesus and God are one. Jesus submitted to every Word of God that shows His agreement. We are to submit to every Word of God to show our agreement.
Jesus prayed John 17-22 that we "are one" with Jesus and God the Father. And that doesnt make us God any more than it made Jesus God to be one with God.
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
Only People Who Worship In The Flesh Believe Jesus Is God
On Ro 9
Paul is talking about having great sorrow and grief over those who worship in the flesh.According to the flesh he could even wish he were cut off from Christ. Because those who worship in the flesh believe that Christ came and that Christ is the eternally blessed God.But as Paul says they are not all Israel who are from Israel nor are they children of Abraham seed. Those who worship in the flesh and believe this are not children of God.
Rom 9:1-8
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
xxx The only trinity in the Word of God is the dragon, devil,satan.
Rev 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)
yeshuaslavejeff
New member
i was raised lutheran church missouri synod. thankfully a more bible based/faith inspired group than some others, though still i never saw nor heard the gospel inside a building per se.... (everyone today anywhere who is or will be saved is saved by Yhwh through Y'shua whenever or wherever they seek Him in Truth with they're whole life, as He Promised)
per quote below ---- TRINIES DID NOT TRY TO FORM A BELIEF about trinity.
again
trinitarians DID NOT TRY TO FORM A BELIEF about trinity.
again
trinitarians DID NOT TRY TO FORM A BELIEF ABOUT TRINITY! NO!.... there.
they simply accepted what they were taught about it. and they defend it ferociously at times because that is their picture of 'GOD'. same as other denominations and non-denominations on troll.....
others, like i once was/did/remember/ ..... simply accept it without fighting about it, and shrug as others wrangle or fight all about it.... it doesn't matter about the details of this wrangling to them/ me at the time/ as TRUSTING GOD for life and salvation and healing and sustenance and peace and joy and wholeness
DOES NOT START WITH UNDERSTANDING GOD, but seeking Him, looking to Him, crying out to Him,
realizing that we/me/i/u/ in the flesh/world's knowledges and widsoms, CANNOT grasp God or His Kingdom.
we are wholly, completely, entirely AT HIS MERCY. God does as He Pleases, and He saves who He saves.
most people refuse to seek Him, then also refuse to listen to Him. so they die.
thank God through faith and grace in Jesus if you are alive, or want to be --- it is He Who can save you, and He alone. no man nor religion nor group nor any other way can save you.
remember the little children Jesus gathered to Himself and held on His knee, --- they did not think about nor understand much, but they looked to Him with wide open eyes and He blessed them (us?) , as they looked TO HIM, not to others. they/we might not even know our right hand from our left, ...... but whoever's sins He removes and remembers no more, is blessed.
per quote below ---- TRINIES DID NOT TRY TO FORM A BELIEF about trinity.
again
trinitarians DID NOT TRY TO FORM A BELIEF about trinity.
again
trinitarians DID NOT TRY TO FORM A BELIEF ABOUT TRINITY! NO!.... there.
they simply accepted what they were taught about it. and they defend it ferociously at times because that is their picture of 'GOD'. same as other denominations and non-denominations on troll.....
others, like i once was/did/remember/ ..... simply accept it without fighting about it, and shrug as others wrangle or fight all about it.... it doesn't matter about the details of this wrangling to them/ me at the time/ as TRUSTING GOD for life and salvation and healing and sustenance and peace and joy and wholeness
DOES NOT START WITH UNDERSTANDING GOD, but seeking Him, looking to Him, crying out to Him,
realizing that we/me/i/u/ in the flesh/world's knowledges and widsoms, CANNOT grasp God or His Kingdom.
we are wholly, completely, entirely AT HIS MERCY. God does as He Pleases, and He saves who He saves.
most people refuse to seek Him, then also refuse to listen to Him. so they die.
thank God through faith and grace in Jesus if you are alive, or want to be --- it is He Who can save you, and He alone. no man nor religion nor group nor any other way can save you.
remember the little children Jesus gathered to Himself and held on His knee, --- they did not think about nor understand much, but they looked to Him with wide open eyes and He blessed them (us?) , as they looked TO HIM, not to others. they/we might not even know our right hand from our left, ...... but whoever's sins He removes and remembers no more, is blessed.
Trinity Delusions
People start out in the milk understanding. They read the Word and look for some kind of carnal understanding of the verses. And they will get some. Then they start putting all these carnal reasonings together. Well they are also suppose to be looking for the Holy Spirit within them. And the milk understanding is atleast three years long. By then you will have enough verses written in your book of beliefs that the Holy Spirit can start quoting them and teaching you with them. Now if someone starts walking after the Spirit He will lead them with the verses into purging their carnality and crucifying their flesh with its emotions and feelings. This is the fight that Paul spoke of. Some will not be able to follow the Spirit, because they cant give up their feelings. And they will start looking for ways to justify their flesh and yet still act like their worshiping God. Those who follow the Spirit(verses) will grow in the verses. Here is the problem. When a Spirit led Christian gets a verse they can know it is from the Holy Spirit and that it is the only guarantee from God in the whole bible. And that the Holy Spirit will only quote the verses, and never work through our feelings and emotions. But those who dont follow the Spirit will only receive the reasoning that they have written in their conscience(book of beliefs). From birth we all have had our guardian angel giving us the right answer to any questions, and we have always had the devil giving us the wrong answer to any questions. The devil always gives the opposite of what our guardian angels gives us. Some times we make the right decision and some times we make the wrong decision. But those who have the Holy Spirit will get a verse showing them which idea is from their guardian angel. The problem with not having the Holy Spirit guiding one is this. The devil can quote a principle in our book of beliefs carnally, but he cant quote the verses in our conscience. His kingdom would be divided against itself. So he can quote from our book of beliefs and use spiritual principles in the wrong contest.
Your guardian angel can tell you to love this person. And your guardian angel can tell you to reject this person.
Your guardian angel wants you to love your own kind.
The Holy Spirit will give you one of these verses.
1 Pet 2:17
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
(NKJ)
Heb 13:2
2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.
(NKJ)
Luke 6:31-34
31 "And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34 "And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.
(NKJ)
The devil can tell you to love this person. And the devil can tell you to reject this person.
The devil wants you to love your own kind.
The Holy Spirit will give you one of these verses.
Eph 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
(NKJ)
Matt 7:6
6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 10:20-21
20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
(NKJ)
People start out in the milk understanding. They read the Word and look for some kind of carnal understanding of the verses. And they will get some. Then they start putting all these carnal reasonings together. Well they are also suppose to be looking for the Holy Spirit within them. And the milk understanding is atleast three years long. By then you will have enough verses written in your book of beliefs that the Holy Spirit can start quoting them and teaching you with them. Now if someone starts walking after the Spirit He will lead them with the verses into purging their carnality and crucifying their flesh with its emotions and feelings. This is the fight that Paul spoke of. Some will not be able to follow the Spirit, because they cant give up their feelings. And they will start looking for ways to justify their flesh and yet still act like their worshiping God. Those who follow the Spirit(verses) will grow in the verses. Here is the problem. When a Spirit led Christian gets a verse they can know it is from the Holy Spirit and that it is the only guarantee from God in the whole bible. And that the Holy Spirit will only quote the verses, and never work through our feelings and emotions. But those who dont follow the Spirit will only receive the reasoning that they have written in their conscience(book of beliefs). From birth we all have had our guardian angel giving us the right answer to any questions, and we have always had the devil giving us the wrong answer to any questions. The devil always gives the opposite of what our guardian angels gives us. Some times we make the right decision and some times we make the wrong decision. But those who have the Holy Spirit will get a verse showing them which idea is from their guardian angel. The problem with not having the Holy Spirit guiding one is this. The devil can quote a principle in our book of beliefs carnally, but he cant quote the verses in our conscience. His kingdom would be divided against itself. So he can quote from our book of beliefs and use spiritual principles in the wrong contest.
Your guardian angel can tell you to love this person. And your guardian angel can tell you to reject this person.
Your guardian angel wants you to love your own kind.
The Holy Spirit will give you one of these verses.
1 Pet 2:17
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
(NKJ)
Heb 13:2
2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.
(NKJ)
Luke 6:31-34
31 "And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34 "And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.
(NKJ)
The devil can tell you to love this person. And the devil can tell you to reject this person.
The devil wants you to love your own kind.
The Holy Spirit will give you one of these verses.
Eph 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
(NKJ)
Matt 7:6
6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 10:20-21
20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
(NKJ)
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Absolutely historical fact.
I have previously attempted to address the semantic problem but only as it pertains to English. It appears you are better informed regarding word derivations and translations. Although this is extremely interesting and helpful as colour commentary, I am still convinced that the problem can really be solved without relying on this information.
If we are going to hold to 3 in 1, we need to designate (and this information exists) a special definition of 'Person' (as it applies to the doctrine of the Trinity) than the standard definition of 'person' as it applies to man. This is obvious in that God is Spirit and is not, except in the special case of the Incarnation, confined in any creature sense as is mankind.
Agreed that the definition of person, as it generally applies, includes sentience and will, but, in finite form. When defining 'Person' in the Trinity, more is required. Call it 'dimensional expansion' for want of a better designation. We are created in God's image. As our image in a mirror is dimensionally challenged and totally reliant on its source, so is 'person' related to 'Person'.
The invitation for this expansion is, admittedly, by inference but also of necessity in that 3 (something) and 1 are both taught.
'Person' must include the notion of 'officiating identity' which is vitally important to the Doctrine of God and in seed form in the O.T. The N.T. expands, dimensionally, the idea that God is "personal" and, if we add 'identity' to the mix, we are close to a right idea of 'Person' as it applies to the Trinity.
Jesus personally appeared as 'Person' with the authority of this 'officiating identity' to validate relationship; both vertically and horizontally. He cannot be 'begotten' except by 'Person' and except by 'Other'. He also cannot represent us as kinsman-redeemer without a valid relationship to us.
I submit that your objection to the word 'person', because it necessarily requires sentience and will, is because you are adhering a little too tenaciously to the anthropomorphic principle of revelation to the exclusion of how God wishes us to 'person'ally know Him.