Arsenios
Well-known member
I can't improve on that period!
I nominate you for the OXYMORON of the YEAR AWARD!
Last guy to win it wrote:
I HATE SHOUTING!
Arsenios
ECT Our triune God
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
I can't improve on that period!
I nominate you for the OXYMORON of the YEAR AWARD!
Last guy to win it wrote:
I HATE SHOUTING!
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
A little testy, are we???
Some issues with tissues??
Some sniffles, you say?
Have you considered a fainting couch?
Ooh TA!
A.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Nope.
I came from the territory on the other side of the road than you, Dispy.
The other ditch was on that side of the road.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Right. In faux proof-texting as eisegesis.
No, I use lexicography to refute your fallacious proof-texting errors that don't reflect anything but inaccurate English concepts; and it's to respond to YOUR ad hominem. I've never engaged you until your recent tyrades against whatever I say on any topic.
Your "whole passages and chapters" have been refuted, but you could never admit it. You're just like the mainline Trinitarians you abhor, and you attack and then cry foul if someone dares respond.
Not one of the scriptures you've posted supports Unitarianism, and you conveniently ignore Genesis 2:1 that destroys Unitarianism in one verse.
Just because mainline Trinitarians are wrong by degree, it doesn't mean Arians or Unitarians are right. You could never admit you were wrong. Ever. That's not cool.
No. The Sabbath was rest, and it had no morning and evening. He's rested since He finished. He hasn't had to continue creating throughout time.
His Word and Breath were enough to sustain all creation for all everlasting. Life from life. Seed. His Logos was the seed.
You've destroyed the very Gospel of restiing in Christ by insisting God is constantly working to create. You confine the timeless God to time.
Genesis 2:1 annihilates Unitarianism. You just can't admit you're an utter heretic of the highest order, having created the Son in your own likeness as the express image of your own hypostasis.
That's salvation, not creation. And it's because Believers are in Christ and living by His faith to do all things in their lives.
You're eisegizing scripture again, as always. And all the scriptures about Jesus as man are valid for Theanthropos and His humanity of the Incarnation.
Like mainline Trinitarians, you strip God of His own literal Logos to make it "a plan", leaving God with no intelligence or expression.
Don't blame me for your pathetic apologetics and the scriptural impossibility of your rank heresy. You did that. And you opened this can of me crushing your false doctrine. I was content to focus on the Tritheists who think they're historical Trinitarians.
You brought this onslaught upon yourself to obliterate your shallow dogma and lame references to invalid lexicography while you reduce the Son of God to being your wholly human peer.
You're not unique. You're a Unitarian who insists Theanthropos is merely a man created somehow in Mary's womb 4 millennia after God rested from all creation.
"Like" is a human emotion I'm not instructed by scripture to have for anyone, yet it's not that I don't like you or whomever else.
I love the truth, and you trod it underfoot for your own false dogma that violates scripture; and you could never admit you're wrong. THAT's what I don't like. Along with you doing everything you can to provoke me in the last month, and then whine when I decimate your weak apologetic for your schismatic false beliefs.
But you'll persist, and insist I'm the bad guy while clinging to your egregious error of denying Him who died and resurrected for the sin of mankind.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I just pay more attention to my idle thoughts, before they become idle words these days.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Lightning storm comin', time to shut her down.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Horses in the barn first. They don't much like that schtuff.
Arsenios
Well-known member
:thumb:
Roger THAT
:up:
I have a lot more regrets for what I have said than for what I have not said...
Arsenios
I do accept that scripture does refer to the ONE God in three ways: as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; therefore, I understand and accept the use of the word Trinity.
However, I look first at the truth that there is ONE God and he is Spirit.
The way I've been able to wrap my mind around ONE being discussed as three is this:
The key to things is that God created an image for himself. He did this before he shared its likeness with Adam. I believe scripture suggests that it was a super-natural (meaning non-earthly and more angelic) in essence.
God was able to use that image repeatedly and, at times, simultaneously. He could manifest it within many realms and at various intensities. Dreams, visions, in its full dangerous glory and safely as one man talks to another.
This super-natural presence of the OT became knowing as God the Father of Israel.
Yet, the invisible spiritual God was also able to manifest his created presence even in flesh. Therefore, God appeared as his own "begotten son," Jesus makes it clear that he, as God the Son, bore the same image as God the Father for he said: "When you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.
How do I explain John 1:1-2 ... I think it is much easier than most people consider. God is an infinite Spirit and is LIFE; therefore, every aspect of his nature is alive. God could name many of his attributes and we should expect that each thing his lists is him and is alive in him. This is how John 1 explains the WORD of God, which I consider God's audible voice. The WORD was God and was alive in him. God sent his audible voice among men in a physical mortal fleshly form ... thus, we now have seen the both the Father and the Son manifested in visible form. The Spiriit of God remains invisible.
So what about the Holy Spirit in us?
I believe from what I have studies that God can allocate of his own nature in measure. Since all things exist IN God and of him CONSISTS ... and yet we see that realms within have been established and things have been allocated to exist within those realms ... then we can consider that God is able to allocate a measure a of his Spirit to dwell in men to bring them to eternal life.
After all, God has already given mankind a measure of temporary but adequate life that we experience in this world. The only living human known to have ever had access to all of God's spirit was Jesus.
That is because Jesus (in a fleshly form) represented all of the invisible Spiritual God just as the Father (in a super natural form) represented all of the invisible Spiritual God. The Father and the Son could both be referred to as Emmanuel.
ONE God able to manifest his presence visually in two ways ... and invisibly by measure.
However, I look first at the truth that there is ONE God and he is Spirit.
The way I've been able to wrap my mind around ONE being discussed as three is this:
The key to things is that God created an image for himself. He did this before he shared its likeness with Adam. I believe scripture suggests that it was a super-natural (meaning non-earthly and more angelic) in essence.
God was able to use that image repeatedly and, at times, simultaneously. He could manifest it within many realms and at various intensities. Dreams, visions, in its full dangerous glory and safely as one man talks to another.
This super-natural presence of the OT became knowing as God the Father of Israel.
Yet, the invisible spiritual God was also able to manifest his created presence even in flesh. Therefore, God appeared as his own "begotten son," Jesus makes it clear that he, as God the Son, bore the same image as God the Father for he said: "When you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.
How do I explain John 1:1-2 ... I think it is much easier than most people consider. God is an infinite Spirit and is LIFE; therefore, every aspect of his nature is alive. God could name many of his attributes and we should expect that each thing his lists is him and is alive in him. This is how John 1 explains the WORD of God, which I consider God's audible voice. The WORD was God and was alive in him. God sent his audible voice among men in a physical mortal fleshly form ... thus, we now have seen the both the Father and the Son manifested in visible form. The Spiriit of God remains invisible.
So what about the Holy Spirit in us?
I believe from what I have studies that God can allocate of his own nature in measure. Since all things exist IN God and of him CONSISTS ... and yet we see that realms within have been established and things have been allocated to exist within those realms ... then we can consider that God is able to allocate a measure a of his Spirit to dwell in men to bring them to eternal life.
After all, God has already given mankind a measure of temporary but adequate life that we experience in this world. The only living human known to have ever had access to all of God's spirit was Jesus.
That is because Jesus (in a fleshly form) represented all of the invisible Spiritual God just as the Father (in a super natural form) represented all of the invisible Spiritual God. The Father and the Son could both be referred to as Emmanuel.
ONE God able to manifest his presence visually in two ways ... and invisibly by measure.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Thanks, PPS -
I keep looking for a some secure place to set an anchor, and perhaps a discussion of creation and time would help... Have you digested the Hierotheos book yet?
You are right to note that the western concept of person is shallow and weak compared to that of the Greek hypostasis/person... It is an irreducible primary in the Greek, and ultimately knowable only to God Who created us, whereas in the West, we understand it to only mean the mask of fallen personal emotional constructure we have become as we develop from childhood... For the Greeks, this mask is the prosopon, and referred to the large masks used by actors on ancient Greek stages where the great tragedies and comedies were enacted with great voices at great visual distances from large audiences...
The idea was that the closer you got, the less believable the character being portrayed became... Modern HD does much the same - In movies, the slight blurring of the images produced by slower frames is an essential part of telling the story...
So that the Attic Greeks, in their plays, portrayed characters who were projected by images in masks, and the mask is the prosopon, and the actor is the hypostasis wearing the mask... The hypostasis is the person wearing the mask... The reality beneath the image being projected in the words and actions of the play...
This is the pre-Christian understanding of hypostasis, eikon, prosopon, and logoi... Derived from telling Homeric stories on grand stages...
A Christian, of course, unites the face projected with the face of the actor in the genuine hypostasis of God's Image in Which He originally created us... And this is restored and then surpassed in the conjoining of the person being entered into Christ with the Person of Christ Himself... We regain the Garden, and then being joined with the One Who ascended the wood of the Cross, we now can safely as mature adults in Christ approach the Tree from which we were formerly banned... But we have to be baptized into the death of Christ and then make ourselves dead to temptations... And only then, as dead men walking, are we free from death in Him Who overcame the power of Death...
And all this, of course, entails us being a New Creation IN Christ... And in becoming one with the One Who created time, and thereby living as co-creators of time... Which means that time is malleable, and creation ongoing with time as one of its created features...
So there should be much worth discussing...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
Your lying about what I believe just tells me you have never met the Lord to know what or who He is.
Like the RCC you do not take into account Christs baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him, nor what happened in His resurrection to Him.
You want it to all have happened at His birth.
LA
One Hundred Scriptural Arguments for the Unitarian Faith
Unitarian Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and the Saviour of men. They believe in the divinity of his mission and in the divinity of his doctrines. They believe that the Gospel which he proclaimed came from God; that the knowledge it imparts, the morality it enjoins, the spirit it breathes, the acceptance it provides, the promises it makes, the prospects it exhibits, the rewards it proposes, the punishments it threatens, all proceed from the Great Jehovah. But they do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Supreme God. They believe that, though exalted far above all other created intelligences, he is a being distinct from, inferior to, and dependent upon, the Father Almighty. For this belief they urge, among other reasons, the following arguments from the Scriptures.
1. Because Jesus Christ is represented by the sacred writers to be as distinct a being from God the Father as one man is distinct from another. “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me,” John 8:17, 18.
2. Because he not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3. This language our Saviour used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”
3. Because he is declared, in unnumbered instances, to be the Son of God. “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” Matt. 3:17. Can a son be coeval and the same with his father?
4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power,” Acts 10:38. Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed?
5. Because he is represented as a Priest. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,” Heb. 3:1. The office of a priest is to minister to God. Christ, then, as a priest, cannot be God.
6. Because Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.
7. Because, as the Saviour of men, he was sent by the Father. “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14.
8. Because he is an Apostle appointed by God. “Consider the Apostle,…Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him,” Heb. 3:1, 2.
9. Because Christ is represented as our intercessor with God. “It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.
10. Because the head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God,” 1 Cor. 11:3.
11. Because, in the same sense in which we are said to belong to Christ, Christ is said to belong to God. “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s,” 1 Cor. 3:23.
12. Because Christ says, “My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. Is not the father, then greater than the son?
13. Because he affirms, in another connection, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28
14. Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt. 19:17.
15. Because our Saviour, after having said, “I and my Father are one,” gives his disciples distinctly to understand that he did not mean one substance, equal in power and glory, but one only in affection and design, &c; as clearly appears from the prayer he offers to his Father in their behalf, –“that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us,” John 17:21
16. Because the Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. “Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17.
17. Because an Apostle says of God, in distinction from the “Lord Jesus Christ,” that He is the “only Potentate,” and that He “only hath immortality,” 1 Tim. 6:15, 16.
18. Because it is the express declaration of the same Apostle, that the Father is the one God, and there is none other. “Though there be that are called Gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,” 1 Cor. 8:5, 6.
19. Because the power which Christ possessed was, as he affirmed, given to him. “All power is given unto me,” &c., Matt. 28:18.
20. Because he positively denies himself to be the author of his miraculous works, but refers them to the Father, or the holy spirit of God. “The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works,” John 14:10. “If I cast out devils by the spirit of God,” &c., Matt. 12:28.
21. Because he distinctly states, that these works bear witness, not to his own power, but that the Father had sent him, John 5:36.
22. Because he expressly affirms that the works were done, not in his own, but in his Father’s name, John 10:25.
23. Because he asserts, that “him hath God the Father sealed,” i.e. to God the Father he was indebted for his credentials, John 6:27.
24. Because he declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me,” John 7:16, 17.
25. Because he represents himself as having been instructed by the Father. “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,” John 8:28.
26. Because he refers invariablly to the Father as the origin of the authority by which he spoke and acted. “The Father hath given to the Son authority,” & c., John 5:26, 27.
27. Because he acknowledges his dependence on his Heavenly Father for example and direction in all his doings. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20.
28. Because he says “I seek not mine own glory; but I honor my Father,” John 8:49, 50.
29. Because he declares, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me,” John 8:54.
30. Because an Apostle declares, that in Christ dwelt all fullness, because it so pleased the Father, Col. 1:19.
Read on --http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/100-scriptural-arguments-for-the-unitarian-faith
Unitarian Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God and the Saviour of men. They believe in the divinity of his mission and in the divinity of his doctrines. They believe that the Gospel which he proclaimed came from God; that the knowledge it imparts, the morality it enjoins, the spirit it breathes, the acceptance it provides, the promises it makes, the prospects it exhibits, the rewards it proposes, the punishments it threatens, all proceed from the Great Jehovah. But they do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Supreme God. They believe that, though exalted far above all other created intelligences, he is a being distinct from, inferior to, and dependent upon, the Father Almighty. For this belief they urge, among other reasons, the following arguments from the Scriptures.
1. Because Jesus Christ is represented by the sacred writers to be as distinct a being from God the Father as one man is distinct from another. “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me,” John 8:17, 18.
2. Because he not only never said that himself was God, but, on the contrary, spoke of the Father, who sent him, as God, and as the only God. “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” John 17:3. This language our Saviour used in solemn prayer to “his Father and our Father.”
3. Because he is declared, in unnumbered instances, to be the Son of God. “And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” Matt. 3:17. Can a son be coeval and the same with his father?
4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power,” Acts 10:38. Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed?
5. Because he is represented as a Priest. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,” Heb. 3:1. The office of a priest is to minister to God. Christ, then, as a priest, cannot be God.
6. Because Christ is Mediator between the “One God,” and “men.” “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Tim. 2:5.
7. Because, as the Saviour of men, he was sent by the Father. “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14.
8. Because he is an Apostle appointed by God. “Consider the Apostle,…Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him,” Heb. 3:1, 2.
9. Because Christ is represented as our intercessor with God. “It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Rom. 8:34.
10. Because the head of Christ is God. “I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God,” 1 Cor. 11:3.
11. Because, in the same sense in which we are said to belong to Christ, Christ is said to belong to God. “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s,” 1 Cor. 3:23.
12. Because Christ says, “My father is greater than all,” John 10:29. Is not the father, then greater than the son?
13. Because he affirms, in another connection, and without the least qualification, “My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28
14. Because he virtually denies that he is God, when he exclaims, “Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” Matt. 19:17.
15. Because our Saviour, after having said, “I and my Father are one,” gives his disciples distinctly to understand that he did not mean one substance, equal in power and glory, but one only in affection and design, &c; as clearly appears from the prayer he offers to his Father in their behalf, –“that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us,” John 17:21
16. Because the Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. “Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17.
17. Because an Apostle says of God, in distinction from the “Lord Jesus Christ,” that He is the “only Potentate,” and that He “only hath immortality,” 1 Tim. 6:15, 16.
18. Because it is the express declaration of the same Apostle, that the Father is the one God, and there is none other. “Though there be that are called Gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,” 1 Cor. 8:5, 6.
19. Because the power which Christ possessed was, as he affirmed, given to him. “All power is given unto me,” &c., Matt. 28:18.
20. Because he positively denies himself to be the author of his miraculous works, but refers them to the Father, or the holy spirit of God. “The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works,” John 14:10. “If I cast out devils by the spirit of God,” &c., Matt. 12:28.
21. Because he distinctly states, that these works bear witness, not to his own power, but that the Father had sent him, John 5:36.
22. Because he expressly affirms that the works were done, not in his own, but in his Father’s name, John 10:25.
23. Because he asserts, that “him hath God the Father sealed,” i.e. to God the Father he was indebted for his credentials, John 6:27.
24. Because he declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me,” John 7:16, 17.
25. Because he represents himself as having been instructed by the Father. “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,” John 8:28.
26. Because he refers invariablly to the Father as the origin of the authority by which he spoke and acted. “The Father hath given to the Son authority,” & c., John 5:26, 27.
27. Because he acknowledges his dependence on his Heavenly Father for example and direction in all his doings. “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do,” John 5:19. “The Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth” John 5:20.
28. Because he says “I seek not mine own glory; but I honor my Father,” John 8:49, 50.
29. Because he declares, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me,” John 8:54.
30. Because an Apostle declares, that in Christ dwelt all fullness, because it so pleased the Father, Col. 1:19.
Read on --http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/100-scriptural-arguments-for-the-unitarian-faith
oh no ! ! !
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I'm utterly unconcerned about your assessment of anything whatsoever. You're a heretic of the highest order.
Nope.
I take this into account. Just not like heretic Unitarians who read their false doctrine into scripture.
Sure I do. You have no idea about this or anything else. You're a Unitarian.
Nope. He's the eternal Logos. Only the Incarnation happened at His birth.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
All an eisegetic misrepresentation of scripture.
I'm kinda jumping into this conversation, but you appear to suffer from the same spirit of the western concept you write about. You appear to also be reading out of the Prophets and into Plato.
As the Greek understanding of hypostasis has no meaning or bearing what so ever in the Hebraic culture that Jesus and his followers lived and taught in. The Greek and Hebrew cultures did not share belief systems. They are not compatible! The further away from the Hebrew culture Christianity spread the more world views of the new believers came into being confusing the original message meant to be taught. By infusing Greek thought into Hebrew scripture, you get a false belief system that lacks Hebraic truth.
I apologize if I'm not understanding you.
Paul