Punishing liars and rebels by giving them lies they want to hear while telling them ahead of time they are being lied to is not immoral. Sending babies to hell for no reason is immoral. God rebuked that sort of foolishness in Ezekiel 18, when He said, "As I live you shall no longer be allowed to say something so stupid." (In modern English.)
Our Moral God
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Lon
Well-known member
My answer: Read the full context. The prophets of Israel were making up lies. Micaiah reported their thinking as well as what was behind it, clearly, if there were lies, they were expelled at this point and made plain else Micaiah would have 'thwarted God' at that point. Because of that, and knowing God doesn't work against Himself, we know that perhaps some confuse this passage, but they should look at the larger picture, what was specifically accomplished (the lie was dispelled by the prophet of God Micaiah), and any confusion that might be drawn be cleared up at LEAST by the actual accomplishment (a true prophet gave a clear prophecy of demise from God). When that man was called to 'tell the truth' he is recorded as giving the above context.
No 'Augustinian, Catholic, or Calvinist' or anybody else needs to be trapped by the question. If you were, don't feel terrible, its a tough passage. It is RATHER a text that demands a careful (not careless nor thin veneer) read and interpretation of scripture.
Similarly, Satan was 'allowed' to torment Job for instance, and none of us read it as a desire of God to 'torment Job' for instance. God works 'all things' for good so His intention is always toward that end because it is His nature.
Scripture helps in other places, to grasp this passage: lying is not the instruction of the Lord as if God is capable of lying. James 1:13When tempted, no one should say, “ God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.
God cannot lie, scripture tells us plainly in Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 16.
Whatever other thing we bring from 1 Kings 22, should not be that God lies or sends liars as representatives of Himself and His nature. Furthermore, God actually clears it up with Micaiah, who tells the truth and actually dispels, in this very text, the lie that was given. The confusion, to me, is over whether Micaiah was lying or was dispelling the lie he saw, given by all the other prophets. I believe he was describing the lie of the prophets, rather. Why? Because he was slapped right after dispelling the lie, by the chief supposed (lying) prophet. It may even be that the narrative is describing that specific prophet that slapped him. Again, the clarity of the text could be translated better, but at the very least, we can draw that Micaiah, as a messenger of God, actually dispels the lie, and that is the most important point to be drawn from the text, about God: He sent a prophet to dispel the lie. -Lon
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Lon
Well-known member
This is a bit like "Mathematics." You might say God is 'Mathematical' but it isn't the same for God as for us. All of our grasp and thoughts are 'discovered' and learned. "Logic" is a 'making sense of' and so in a real sense, most of the time, 'simple logic' is 'human logic,' by its very definition.
Ahab did not want to believe the truth. Ahab had caused God to despise him for his rebellion. When one spirit in heaven offered to lead Ahab to destruction by lying to him, God gave that spirit the liberty to do so for excellent reasons. But the text does not say God lied to Ahab. And the text does not say the spirit lied to Ahab in a way which provided no exposure of the truth. God intended Michaia to rebuke Ahab's lying prophets by mocking them with the truth about their lying. They lied yet Michaih pointed out that their lies were born of evil spirits deceiving them into doing so.
Nevertheless, God did not allow the devil's lie to go unchecked. Michaiah also told Ahab the truth and the fact that Ahab was fighting against God and that God was allowing evil spirits to lead Ahab around by the nose for his rebellion.
If we could all live by the greatest commandments, then we would not need the law. As you say, the law condemns.
The purpose of the law is to teach sinners they have no hope of earning favor with God by keeping laws they could not keep if they lived a thousand years. The law is to teach sinners of their need to repent of their sins and seek forgiveness from Jesus if they ever hope to find acceptance with God.
??? Contradiction ????
Morality is right and God is moral because morality is right. God will always support what is always right in spite of what humans may think to the contrary.
Do you know what a tautology is?
Derf
Well-known member
@marke: Clete is right, you seem to rely on a tautology to make your point. That may not be wrong when one is considering the source of morality. But it makes one wonder if God could have chosen a different moral construct, where adultery, theft, and murder are preferred. I don’t think so, at least without endangering His creation.
Thus it appears that either God has adopted a morality that is either independent from Himself (making Him less almighty), or that the morality he has chosen is the one He knows will result in good to His creation (which is indicative of His wisdom), which also happens to reflect His own character.
God cannot declare wrong to be right. That would be like declaring devils to be saints.
Have you read the opening post?
If not, it would be helpful if you would do so. That way we can be talking about the same thing without wasting each other's time.
Clete
Saying it doesn't make it so - even if you happen to be right.
Why can God not declare wrong to be right?
Why?
Read the open post for the answer.
Derf
Well-known member
That assumes that God has to abide by some standard outside Himself. If He defines right and wrong, then He could indeed declare devils to be saints.
Can you tell me why that isn’t possible?
Bradley D
Well-known member
God is truth!
"Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth" (Ps. 31:5).
God cannot lie because He said so. Do you think God can do wrong and call it right?
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1) Is something (like humility) good because God recognizes it as good? Or,
2) Is something good because God commands that it is good (as Socrates put it, because God loves it)?
Derf
Well-known member
Your quote actually enforces what I was saying. That God might be able to determine what is truth by willing it to be truth. So moral truth would depend on what He decided to declare moral, making devils saints. Is that a problem for you? It is for me.
God is good and bad is bad, even if God has not said so.