Opposition to women preachers evidence of demonic influence??

[asilentskeptic]

Here's a funny little story, actually happened last sunday...I attend a very small and conservative (fundamental baptist) church. I don't always agree with some of the the people, but I love the people there..

My grandma has some memory problems, she's got dementia (she gets confused easily) and my dad leads singing. So he said "Bob would you like to pray for us" (keep in mind, very conservative church, so that means women = no praying). But bob hesitated, and my grandma thought he said "mom would you like to pray for us."

Needless to say the church was silent after this happened...And honestly it was a great prayer, I've always enjoyed listening to my grandmother pray (in our home...this was the first time in church lol) because even though she's often confused, her prayers are the most humble and heart-felt. Sometimes I'll hear some men pray in our church and it's almost like they try to make it as eloquent and exciting as possible.

Anyways, I've heard the theory that paul was directing the silence in church thing to certain churches that had problems with women disrupting the service...I'm not sure if that's true or not, but my grandma's little story is still a funny little event that's been on my mind the last few days.

Does that mean that the passages of Scripture are no longer relevant today? It's a scary thought. Can we choose to ignore Bible verses because they "just address the issues of the day"? Or, should we ignore them because we don't like them? Doesn't every passage in most of Paul's books address the issues of the day?

questions to ponder.

Be careful with statements like that. I agree there is far more to the issue than those two verses... so there may be other grounds to it... but walk carefully.

 

[logos_x]

And I'll say it again...Tony Campolo is right. :thumb:

A sociologist by training, Campolo said that one of the primary reasons the CBF exists is because "another group" said it would not endorse the idea that women can serve as pastors. He characterized that statement as "about as evil a statement as one can make."

"It's one thing to be wrong, but that isn't wrong, that's sinful. The Bible says, 'neglect not the gift that is in you,' and when women are gifted with the gift of preaching, anybody who frustrates that gift is an instrument of the devil," Campolo said.

Campolo encouraged the CBF to continue combating the sexism of those whom he said, "change the Bible to fit their theology."

So...get over it, already! There was a time...when we had a civil war in this country. One central issue was slavery. And southern preachers used scripture to argue in favor of slavery.
We've come a long way, baby!

 

[Poly]

And I'll say it again...Tony Campolo is right. :thumb:

We've come a long way, baby!

So in other words, Tony Campolo and you know better than God.

"Sorry God, we realize that you had a particular way of doing things but we are wiser today than you and we just know how to do things better so move out of the way and let us do our thing."

 

[asilentskeptic]

So...get over it, already! There was a time...when we had a civil war in this country. One central issue was slavery. And southern preachers used scripture to argue in favor of slavery.
We've come a long way, baby!

Hmm, the Bible actually says some cool things about slavery. There actually is scripture in favor of it. How far have we come?

(Edit: I do not condone slavery, just pointing out that it is scriptural to a certain extent)

 

[logos_x]

So in other words, Tony Campolo and you know better than God.

"Sorry God, we realize that you had a particular way of doing things but we are wiser today than you and we just know how to do things better so move out of the way and let us do our thing."

No..in other words Tony Compolo and I know better than fall into the claptrap the God intends the church and christianity to remain in the dark ages and behave more like the Pharisees did than Christ.

Slavery and chauvinism are not dictates of the Holy Spirit.
Bond...free, male...female, there is no difference of status of these in Christ.

 

[inteltheology]

It also says that a wife should submit to her husband, and not vice-versa. It says a husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church. You advocate a belief that is clearly not what the Bible teaches.

Actually, in the original texts of the bible, the word 'submit' is not used in Ep 5:22 - it is implied from the above verses that translate, "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."

Then it goes on "Wives, unto your own husbands as unto God." So - how would this make any sense unless the ideal of MUTUAL submission between husband and wife (ALL of humanity, for that matter!) is taken into play? So actually, it does advocate submission vica-versa (!)... but also versa-vica!!

The real question is, why do you want to avoid the literal interpretation of the bible? Is it the surrounding Western culture? Few Christians in Muslim countries have a problem with these verses.

The Western culture and its ideals of gender identity and gender roles are actually what put the sway of female subordination into the Bible. Westerners added the extra word 'submission' in translation; (Westerners implied the word 'homosexual' in the Bible; Westerners fought wars over Jesus' peaceful teachings and validated killing by misconstruing biblical facts.) It's the surrounding Western culture that pushes for power, power, power and interprets the Bible to favor with authority certain groups over others. Maybe it is the surrounding Western culture that makes me, as a woman, want control and dignity for myself - and maybe it's the western drive for power that makes me so zealously AGAINST sexist interpretation of the Bible. I know that more than that,though .... it's a drive to know the biblical truth and follow through with it in my life. I absolutely believe that, in truth, men and women are entitled to the same priveledges of service to God biblically[B/].

[Outlandishly Personal Opinion Sidebar] Using the Bible to take authority for yourself and steal dignity and individual power from others is not the Christian way, it is the Western way. Power, power, power ... those aren't things Jesus crusaded for!! Why do men use these verses to drain respect and power from women? Because they want the power for themselves! Think about it ... why else would it be this way? Blah, blah, blah ... tranquility in the home. From personal experience - mutual cooperation and equal authority between spouses in a marraige is a very, very pleasant and enjoyable thing. My marraige runs much more smoothly than my grandparent's did. Why? My husband and I work together and neither of us try to overpower the other!! Anyways ... off of my rant ... submission is meant to be mutual.

 

[inteltheology]

My sentiments EXACTLY!

My sentiments EXACTLY!

No..in other words Tony Compolo and I know better than fall into the claptrap the God intends the church and christianity to remain in the dark ages and behave more like the Pharisees did than Christ.

Slavery and chauvinism are not dictates of the Holy Spirit.
Bond...free, male...female, there is no difference of status of these in Christ.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! :BRAVO: :jump:

 

[inteltheology]

Or, should we ignore them because we don't like them? Doesn't every passage in most of Paul's books address the issues of the day?

No, a lot of the passages in Paul's books deal with abslute truths and fundamental Christian values. The passages that are specifically adressing the church of his day are showing new Christians how to exist in a world devoid of Christian values without getting themselves killed .....When Jesus said that all were equal in Christ, slaves and women wanted to jump up and have huge revolutions ... but noone would be reached that way, because most of the people were completely closeminded and set in their views. His passages do contain a message, though - reaching others is much more important than claiming personal power.... salvation of the soul is more important than earthly squabbles.

 

[Inquisitor]

Catholics think protestants are Christians, don't they? In any case, way to ignore most of the people who post here...

No idea who this coward is who put this in w/my rep points, but I'll respond to it, anyway. Here goes... Yes, Catholics are nuanced enough to consider protestants to be Christians, insofar as they have valid trinitarian baptisms. However, that does NOT mean that protestant sects have valid orders for their ministers. Furthermore, protestants themselves would not see their orders as valid in the sense that Catholics would use the term "validity." So I have no idea why anyone would be offended by what I was saying, because, as far as it goes, many prots would actually agree w/me.

 

[taoist]

Way to bring a thread back from the dead!

*loads up the silver bullets*

Rats, that's for werewolves ...

*arms with wooden spikes*

Nope, that's for vampires ...

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*tossing down book of Magick in disgust*


Didn't these fools ever figure we'd need a good way to kill a zombie someday.

 

[inteltheology]

Slavery and chauvinism are not dictates of the Holy Spirit.

Beautifully said, logos ... too bad there are so many who would argue otherwise!