a good exchange, lets try it again...
ok, you think I am intellectually dishonest at least as it pertains to theology
No threat.
I'll try not to be as snarky?
There are only two major theologies in Christianity. That is the doctrines of Election and Universalism....Even you should see that.
No, I do not see that at all. I don't see how such an idea can even be possible. Who's teaching you this stuff. It makes no sense!
Universalism is the literally insane notion that every single person will be saved. It teaches that even the likes of Pharoah (i.e. the Exodus Pharoah), Judas, Cain and Pontius Pilate all make it to Heaven. That's flagrantly nonsensical stupidity.
Calvinistic "Election" turns God from a just King into a arbitrary tyrant. An even worse feat of flagrant stupidity.
You are basing the above on something that you say is not even taught in the Bible. Yet, it is taught that GOD will not change His mind nor will He change His word in both the OT and NT.
Saying it doesn't make it so. God did change His mind in BOTH the Old and the New Testaments - multiple times!
Here are just ten passages where God changing His mind is recorded (There are WAY MORE than just ten!)....
Exodus 32:14 – "So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people."
1 Samuel 15:11 – "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not performed My commandments."
1 Samuel 15:35 – "And the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel."
2 Samuel 24:16 – "And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, 'It is enough; now restrain your hand.'"
1 Chronicles 21:15 – "And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying it, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, 'It is enough; now restrain your hand.'"
Jeremiah 18:7-10 – " 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it." (See Romans 9 where this principle is acted upon and applied directly to Israel.)
Jeremiah 26:19 – "Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lord’s favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them."
Amos 7:3 – "So the Lord repented concerning this. 'It shall not be,' said the Lord."
Amos 7:6 – "The Lord repented from this. 'This also shall not be,' said the Lord God."
Jonah 3:10 – "Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it."
I understand you do not care what I Say, just thought you might care what GOD says. And what are these facts of Reality, you speak of???
Did you really miss the point? I went back a read it in context. I do not believe it possible for you to have missed the point.
Regardless, the point is that you don't get to pretend like a common word means something different than what it actually means. You don't get to just redefine the doctrine of election to mean whatever you happen to desire for it to be. I suspect you've done something similar with the term "Universalism" as well, by the way. When people do this, it makes meaningful discourse all but impossible because you are arbitrarily altering the language.
Also, things are not so just because you show up to say it and presenting your personal opinions does not count as making an argument - most especially if such a presentation of your opinions include the use of words and phrases that you've redefined!
OK, good to know where you stand.
Where I stand?
As if MY opinions prove anything!
Do you even know how to formulate a sentence that doesn't beg the question or commit some other fallacy of logic?
No, it flat out is NOT what the doctrine of immutability teaches.
Seriously, where are you getting this from? What church do you attend? Who is teaching you this nonsense! It is, just that, by the way! It is completely and categorically false!
God does not change His WORD nor His actions...
That sentence doesn't even make sense.
God does change His mind and has done so quite a lot actually.
thus we can see that He will not change His two plans for the salvation of two peoples.
There are far more than just two plans of salvation. There were at least two just in the New Testament alone!
The gospel of Grace came along as a direct result of God stopping (pausing really) the previous gospel which had to do with Israel and keeping the law, et al. (Stopping something (or pausing it - whatever) is a change, Bladerunner!)
And so even if the doctrine of immutability had to do with "two plans for salvation", WHICH IT DOES NOT, it still wouldn't hold!
The only sense in which God is immutable is in the fact that He exists and that His personality and righteous character does not change. That's it! The text of scripture cannot and does not support any form of 'immutability" beyond that and if it did, it would be self-contradictory and thus prove itself to be false!
The Bible is deep, deep...God told the 12 men to go in to Canin and they come back, there was only two men who would be willing to jump into the frying pan because they believed GOD was with them.. Did God change His plans because they come back with stories of Giants , etc...NO He did not. In fact, those ten died immediately for not believing and the rest of Israel wondered for 38 years in the wilderness until those Jews who were 20 years and older were dead....Yet, when God pronounced this upon Israel, they all agreed to go over and fight....Did GOD change His word , his decision here,,,,NO..You see it is taught if one wants to look close enough.
Once again, this is literally a text book example of reading your doctrine into the text. I mean, you literally just explained explicitly that you read your doctrine into the text! I've never seen anyone do that before!
Look, there are some passages that are more difficult than others but that can still be understood if one "looks close enough" but that doesn't mean we have permission (rationally speaking) to assume that a passages is "difficult" based solely on the fact that it seems to contradict our doctrine and then "look close enough and hard enough for long enough" to figure out a way to make a passage teach our doctrine. That's completely stupid! You can believe ANYTHING AT ALL if that's a valid way of doing theology!
For the most part, the bible means just exactly what it seems to be saying. The reason there are so many different sects of Christianity, all of whom claim to be "biblical" is precisely because of the sort of thing you just exemplified along with the practice of formulating doctrine based on proof-texts which are isolated from their context. In both cases, the practice is about conforming God's word to one's doctrine rather than conforming one's doctrine to God's word.
Did not say or mean that GOD cannot change...Of course, He can but throughout the Bible, He has shown us, He will not.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Bladrunner.
God has changed in dramatic and permanent ways!! In addition to the passages a presented above that show God changes His mind, the very act of creation was a change in God's relationship, the incarnation was a change in God's form and that's not to mention the fact that God died and rose from the dead! Those are some real whoppers when it comes to change, Bladerunner. We aren't talking about God having a twitchy pinky toe here. We are talking about massively important, literally undeniable (i.e. for Christians) changes that God has undergone!
Revelations 1: 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.
you really believe in the WCF don't you.
Not at all! I dispise nearly every syllable of it.
That doesn't change the fact that it is pretty much THE defining document of the Calvinist tradition.
we all have a Free will and a heart that determines which direction we believe the wind is blowing...
That is not in dispute nor is it the point.
The point is that our hearts do not determine what truth is. Which is to say that what is true is true whether our free will and our hearts ever agree with it or not! Truth is NOT a matter of personal opinion or preference.
Again, I apologise if you got the idea from my words that God cannot change in any way....The Bible is clear that God will not change His WORD
Again, the doctrine of immutability does IN FACT teach that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. Whether you acknowledge that or not does not change the fact that it is what it teaches. More than that, it is what the entire Calvinist system, including all five TULIP doctrine and the doctrine that teaches that God is a control freak is based upon. If God has every change in even the slightest way then NONE of those doctrines are true.
don't think that is what I said..a little disingenuous don't you think
I was responding to your words as stated. And, no, it isn't disingenuous in the slightest. I was stating a foundational principle that is necessary for an objective understanding of God's word, which is to take what the bible to actually mean what it plainly says whenever possible. The idea being to conform one's doctrine to the plain reading of the text rather than bringing one's doctrine with them in an a priori fashion and figuring out ways to conform the text to that doctrine (e.g. "by looking hard enough").
I read the text literally, Historically, Grammatically, synthetically,etc. It is the scripture of GOD you have a problem with, not me.
Liar.
I mean that literally. You knew that statement was false when you wrote it. Who are you trying to fool here? Earlier in this very post you did just the exact opposite and you did the same in the post before this one! You do understand that these posts can be seen by everyone, right? I mean they're right here on the forum for the whole world to see!
Please expand on this thought.....
I think what I've presented above expands this quite well. Let me know if you'd like more.
Yes all of His scripture.
This comment does not appear to connect with the discussion or anything I've said.
May I ask, what does Sovereign mean to you..
The phrase "to me" implies a false premise. I don't get to decide what the word means. It means what it means. I simply take it to actually mean what it means and not what Augustine and the Calvinists have redefined it to mean.
The word "sovereign" does not mean "absolute control over everything that happens". It just does not mean that. The Calvinists simply declare that it means that whenever the word is applied to God. They don't use the word to mean that in any other context. When a Calvinist speaks of the king of some nation, they might call him the "sovereign" ruler of that nation or when speaking of a nation as a whole and it's relationship with other nations, they may refer to a country as being a "sovereign nation". In either case, they are using the word to mean its normal meaning rather than they arbitrarily concocted theological meaning.
The word 'sovereign' simply means "highest authority". If a king is the 'sovereign' ruler of a nation is means that there is no one in a position of authority over him in that country. Used in the sense of "sovereign nation" it simply means that the nation rules itself and no other nation has any right to tell it what it's laws must be or what political positions it must hold.
This is also what it means when applied to God! God is the highest authority but not just over the a nation or even the Earth but God is the highest authority in EXISTENCE. He is THE sovereign ruler of all that exists. But just as a king over a nation does not control every event that occurs in his country, God does not meticulously control the precise path that every electron takes as it travels down a lightening bolt nor does He control the mind's a men to a degree that they always and only ever do precisely as He had determined from eternity past as Augustine and Calvin both believed and taught.
If GOD is not totally sovereignty, then He is not GOD...If He does not have control over every atom, molecule in the universe, then we cannot believe His word. This is part of the Bible, that we can believe what He states because He is control over all things.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Bladerunner.
I can tell that you are not accustomed to rigorous processes of thought where one builds precept upon precept in order to reach a rationally sound conclusion. You're more of type that expresses feelings and buys into things because it seems to you like it must be so.
You should take a step back and try your best to OBJECTIVELY look at what you've said above and try to prove it LOGICALLY.
You won't be able to do so! It very simply does not follow logically at all. It is necessary for me to not only know but actively controle precisely which molecules of fuel are burned in the engine of my car and in what order, in order for you to ride in the car while I'm driving? That's what you're sugggesting here.
"If God doesn't control every single solitary event that ever occurs, no matter how trivial or even totally irrelevant it is to my existence, then I can't trust God to not be a liar."
That's just stupid!
Why isn't it enough to know that God is the designer and creator of all things and that therefore it doesn't matter which particles leave the surface of Alpha Centari or in what order? Why isn't it enough to know that God is far more powerful and vastly more wise than any of His enemies and that He is therefore utterly invincible? Why isn't it enough that God the Father, being a triune being, has the testimony of both the Son and the Spirit, to establish the He has, for all enternity past, been righteous, loving and just (
Deuteronomy 19:15,
Matthew 18:16 &
2 Corinthians 13:1)?
Have you ever thought to apply the standard you put on God to anyone else? What you would think of a team coach that won every game he ever coached because he not only knew in advance what the other team was going to do but was actively controling what the other team would do? Is that a good coach? Do the Harlem Globetrotters win against the Washington Generals because they're a superior basket ball team with a superior coach? NO! It's a put on! It's fake! And if it was done in anything other than an entertainment setting it would be called cheating! God doesn't cheat nor is He puting on a show! RIGHT?!
Why would I as a calvinist say that GOD's justice is random.
Calvinist never actually say it, that isn't the point. The point is that it is what it actually is.
By the way, "random" and "arbitrary" aren't perfectly synonymous here but the point stands.
In other words, just because the Calvinist has redefined practically every word in the whole Christian lexicon so as to fit within their theological construct doesn't mean that I am forced to accept their premises. If they redefine the word "justice" to mean what everyone else uses the word "arbitrary" to mean, then I can still rightly use the word arbitrary to describe their version of God based on their own doctrine.
While I cannot understand in much the same way as Paul could not understand His ways, I accept them totally without question.
You are NEVER asked by anything or anyone in the bible to turn off your mind! It is your mind and your ability to use it that is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. It is the very epitome of ungodliness to turn off your mind! Don't ever let anyone convince you to do so! They are selling you something you do NOT want! There is absolutely no such thing as an irrational truth!
Look, I placed attachment, I am sure you have at least seen it which has many of the scriptures that that teach about all 5 points of the doctrines of election. Of Course, the 6th doctrine, His sovereignty is being taught less and less today in churches of Christianity.
No, I haven't seen it and don't need to. I know from long experience that ever single thing you think that teaches any of that crap is just one more example of either a passage being ripped out of it context or a flat out reading of the doctrine into the text or a mixture of the two. There is no one single syllable of any distinctively Calvinist doctrine that is taught in scripture - period.
what does it mean to you....
Once again, the phrase "to you" implies a false premise. I do not get to decide what it means. It means what it says!
The first several verses of John as so easy that any child can understand them! You could LITERALLY read those verses to any third grade child and ask them what it means and they'd get it right! And that's in spite of the perfectly awful translation of the Greek word 'Logos' into the English term "Word"!
It means that God became a man! That's what it means! I don't really know how else to put it other than to quote John!
The WORD was Jesus Christ of course, and in Rev 19:13, His word is "NAILED down" (a pun if you like). Yet, His word is more than that...Each word, letter, syllable, Yot and Tittle mean everything to Him. Again, without His WORD, (all of it), He is not a God.
Okay, so Logos does not refer to the bible. I can't tell if that's what you were trying to say here or not but, just in case, I wanted to make that clear.
Logos is the Greek word from which we get "logic" and it means "Reason"as in rational discourse.
Glad you got that off your chest, hope you feel better...Me did not phase me in the least....We are supposed to be speaking about GOD and not me.
I give respect to those who have earned it. Those who act childish get treated like children. Those who say stupid things get told so. If you don't want to be treated as a hypoctritical goodball then act like a responsible and intelligent adult. Pertty simple.
