For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9).
On the omniscience of God
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
- Start date
I quoted scripture that says God cannot do certain things.
You have nothing but opinions and assertions without evidence.
See posts 351 and 359.
"Eternal" means endless time, not "unchanging."
You're thinking of "immutable," which God is not.
Begging the question is a logical fallacy.
Time isn't a thing. It's a convention of language that describes sequence.
Spoiler
You're not doing a very good job, then.
The idea that God is outside of time was brought into Christian theology by Augustine, who got much of his theology from the pagan greek philosophers.
You should take that advice.
And? So what? MAKE THE ARGUMENT.
Simply quoting scripture won't do, because I agree with scripture.
That scripture was a nice way of saying you only have your opinions about God,but since He is so far above us in every way that is all you have are your opinions. You assume you really don’t know. Yes God is immutable:
Malachi 3:6
“For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-Immutability-Of
I'm literally quoting scripture in defense of my argument, and you're calling it my opinion?
Get real.
Which has nothing to do with this discussion.
Who's the one who posted posts 368, 369, 371, 374, and 382, again?
Is all I have opinions? Or do I have scripture to back up what I'm saying?
Says the one assuming things. Hypocrite.
Just because God does not change in certain ways (He is just, loving, merciful, gracious etc...) Doesn't mean he is utterly immutable.
In fact, we have plenty of scripture that shows that God changes.
The primary scripture that shows this are the verses that describe God as coming to earth as a baby in a manger, taking on human flesh.
Question, LN:
Do you agree that God became a man?
Heb 6:18 - That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.
"Two immutable things" is not talking about God. You'd think that would be obvious.
God did not become a man? (That's a HUGE change!}
God keeps His promises.
Doesn't mean He doesn't change in any way at all.
I think you need to read the context of what is being said:
Here it is for you:
| God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 6:13-20 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+6:13-20&version=NKJV |
| 8 - God Says He Repents and Changes His Mind and His Actions and actions are not words, so reversing an action cannot be a mere figure of speech; for example, putting a man on a throne and then repenting by removing him is an action and not conceivably a mere figure of speech; and God of course does not repent as a man repents, from sin. God saw Nineveh's turning away from their sin and so God repented (standard Hebrew word for repent, nacham, as throughout) Jonah 3:10; 3:2-4; 4:11 that is, "God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it"; then there's Samuel's repent sandwich 1 Sam. 15:11, 29, 35 in which God says 15:11 and 15:35 that He repented that He made Saul king (so He replaced Saul with David), and in the middle of those two statements, 15:29, He insists that He will not repent of having ended Saul's dynasty, that is, He will not repent from having repented. (This cannot be a figure of speech because it is an action, see below, i.e., actually removing Saul is not just words; it is action 1 Sam. 15:26-28; 1 Sam. 13:13-14. Like other times when God repents, here He does not only repent in word but also in deed. So therefore, the repentant deeds themselves cannot be figures "of speech" and thus they show actual, not figurative, repentance of heart and mind.) The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and He repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart Gen. 6:6; So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth... for I repent that I have made them" Gen. 6:7; Num. 14:12, 20; Ex. 32:14 (etc.); "the Lord was moved to pity" [repented, Heb. nacham] Jud. 2:18 deciding to avert the consequences of their actions; 2 Sam. 24:16; 1 Chr. 21:15; Ps. 106:45; 135:14 (in the Hebrew); God says He is "weary of repenting" (from not meting out more severe judgment) Jer. 15:6; weary, for example, from repeated episodes such as when Israel "served... the gods of the Philistines... So the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel; and He sold them into the hands of the Philistines... they harassed and oppressed the children of Israel... so that Israel was severely distressed and... cried out to the Lord, saying, 'We have sinned against You' ... So the Lord said... "Did I not deliver you from the Egyptians... Yet you have forsaken Me and served other gods. Therefore I will deliver you no more. Go and cry out to the gods which you have chosen; let them deliver you in your time of distress." And the children of Israel said to the Lord, “We have sinned! Do to us whatever seems best to You; only deliver us this day, we pray." So they put away the foreign gods... And His soul could no longer endure the misery of Israel" so God repented in that He did again deliver them Jud. 10:6-11, 13-16; "Perhaps [Israel] will listen and turn... that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings" Jer. 26:3; God wants to repent "concerning the doom that He has pronounced against" Jerusalem Jer. 26:13; God repented from the doom which He had pronounced against them Jer. 26:19; in forbidding Judah to flee to Egypt God repents of the destruction that He had brought upon them 42:10 (i.e., He is willing to give them a reprieve); God repents of destroying Jerusalem by way of Micah’s prophecy Micah 3:12 with Jer. 26:18-19; God is worthy of Zion's trust because He repents Joel 2:13 as Jonah knew the Lord also as the kind of God who repents Jonah 4:2; the Lord repented of destroying Jacob's late harvest Amos 7:1-3; the Lord repented of His desire to bring a fiery judgment upon His people Amos 7:6; when I say I will destroy a nation, if that nation repents then I will not destroy the nation "that I thought" to destroy Jer. 18:7-8, 11 (again, this is the actual interpretation, God's interpretation of The Potter and the Clay passage); when I say that I will bless a nation, if they disobey Me, I will not do that which I said I will do Jer. 18:9-10; so, implicit in God's urging Jersualem to repent is that He is willing to change His mind about His own plans Jer. 18:11. . . . 12 - God Increases and Learns for He must increase. The Son who eternally possessed a divine nature then took upon Himself a human nature when He "became flesh", as the Father Himself changed and increased by becoming the Father of a Son with two natures, for "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father" John 1:14; and while watching His Child grow the Father’s favor, itself, grew, increasing toward His Son, for "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God" Luke 2:52; [Mat. 3:17]; the fully divine Christ didn't foreknow but learned, "when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves..." Mark 2:8 thus an inability to learn is not an essential attribute necessary for the Son to be fully God; likewise as your thoughts bring a prayer into existence, you "let your requests be made known to God" who's knowledge then increased as your newly created request becomes known to Him Phil. 4:6; and at the time when the Son began His public ministry the Father gave Him even greater honor, "For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him" 2 Peter 1:17; the Son learned obedience for "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience" Heb. 5:8; and He even "humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death" Phil. 2:8; He was tempted Heb. 4:15 [within the constraints of James 1:13; consider also that Adam, Eve, Lucifer, etc., sinned without possessing a sin nature; instead, they had the nature of free moral beings; further, if Jesus Himself could not have sinned, then first, He could not have been tempted; and secondly, He could not have been fully human, which of course, He was; fully human, and fully divine, having taken on Himself a second nature through what theologians call the hypostatic union, something that God the Son did not have through eternity past but something He took upon Himself and shall have through eternity future]; iniquity was found in Lucifer (i.e., found, not foreknown by God nor decreed to be there, but found) Ezek. 28:15; at the cross God the Son learned firsthand, experientially, the consequences of sin Gal. 3:13; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; etc.; "He must increase" John 3:30; and as the Prince of Peace, His peace must increase also, for "Of the increase of His government and peace, there willl be no end" Isa. 9:7; Classical theologians deny that God has all knowledge in that they deny to Him entire classes of knowledge, as in the experiential knowledge category below, such as when they claim that God does not know what it is like for Him to learn something. 13 - God Shows Regret similar to repent and uses the same Hebrew word, nacham. I greatly regret making Saul king 1 Sam. 15:11 therefore God deposed Saul from the throne and gave the dynasty to David. For "Samuel said to Saul, 'You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD… For… the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. But now your kingdom shall not continue…' " 1 Sam. 13:13-14. [An "action" cannot be a figure of speech. Why not? Because an action is not only speech; it is an action. God "repenting" that He made Saul King 1 Sam. 15:11, 35 could theoretically be a figure of speech (but if so, then as a figure, it would have to convey some actual meaning). However "to repent" does not refer only to words or thoughts, but it can also refer to an action (to turn from). When any word, including the word "repent", refers to an action, then it cannot be a figure "of speech", because it is an action. When God removed Saul from the throne, and then actually gave the dynasty to David, that deposing of Saul was an action that God performed. This powerfully illustrates a reason why God inspired His Word as a historical narrative rather than merely as a series of abstractions, so that we would constrain our interpretations based on the biblical accounts.] The Lord repented that He had made man on the earth and was grieved Gen. 6:6-7 so He destroyed the earth's population, which is not speech but an action [except for Noah's family Mat. 24:37-38; 1 Peter 3:20] etc., including the other repent verses. . . . 16 - God Intervenes to Prevent what could Otherwise Happen and addresses contingencies. Cherubim block the way to the Tree of Life lest Adam and Eve physically never die Gen. 3:22-24 by eating of the tree's super-nutritious fruit Rev. 22:2; the men of Babel will accomplish things that God wants to prevent them from accomplishing Gen. 11:5-8; "God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines... for God said, 'Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt' " Ex. 13:17; etc. . . . 20 - God Says He Will No Longer Do Something He Said He Would Do. When I say that I will bless a nation, if they disobey Me, I will not do that which I said I will do Jer. 18:9-10; God acted on this warning as described by Isaiah: "... A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard [Israel]: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes [faith], But it brought forth wild grapes [unbelief]. And now... Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel... He looked for justice, but behold, oppression..." Isa. 5:1-6; Drive out nations Joshua 23:13; Judge 2:21; Jonah 3:10. 21 - God Did Things Before the Creation showing sequence before the foundation of the world, i.e., before He allegedly created time. God chose us in Him (i.e., planned for the members of the Body of Christ) Eph. 1:4-5; the persons of the Godhead shared their glory John 17:5, 24; God foreordained wisdom for our glory before the ages 1 Cor. 2:7; Christ was foreknown before the foundation 1 Peter 1:20 [i.e., that God the Son would become the Messiah, even though we’re told, wrongly, that God can’t do anything in sequence]. 22 - Things that God Became for though He was not always these things, if He wants to, even though it contradicts classical theology, God can change and become such. Savior/Redeemer: God became the Savior as He says, "I became your Savior" Isa. 63:8. Man: God the Son “became flesh” John 1:14 (after saying He is not a man Hos. 11:9; 1 Sam. 15:29; Job 9:32; [Ps. 146:3], yet then having taken upon Himself a second, that is, a human nature, and His Father becoming the Father of a Son with two natures), "in the days of His flesh... though He was a Son... having been perfected" He became a perfect man Heb. 5:7-9; for "this Man... sat down at the right hand of God" Heb. 10:12; the "Man, Jesus Christ" Rom. 5:15; "the Man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim. 2:5; see also Isa. 7:14; Rom. 1:3; 8:3; 9:5; 1 Cor. 15:27; 1 Tim. 3:16; Phil. 2:7-8; etc. Son of Man: More than 80 times Jesus used His favorite title for Himself, Son of Man. Yet Christianity, of course, does not teach that being the Son of Man is a divine attribute from everlasting of the Son, for humanity is not co-eternal with God. Neither is God the Son the "Son of Mary" from everlasting. Yet through, and as of, the Incarnation humanity has become a second nature to Him. Thus God the Son became the "Son of Man" Mat. 16:13; 19:28; Mark 2:28; Luke 9:44; John 6:62; Acts 7:56; Rev. 14:14; Dan. 7:13; etc. The everlasting Father has had that role from everlasting, just as God the Son has been His Son from everlasting. But, making explicit the obvious, of course the Son has not eternally been a man from everlasting, for as we read in the Old Testament that "God is not... a son of man" (Num. 23:19) for at that point, He was not. Mediator: Job wrote, as above, that God "is not a man" and added, "nor is there any mediator between us" Job 9:33 then later God the Son became the "Mediator between God and men" 1 Tim. 2:5, "Mediator" of a better and new covenant (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). Creator: God became the Creator by creating for, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Gen. 1:1. [Also, "In the beginning" does not refer to a beginning of time but to "the beginning of the creation" Mark 10:6 and see too Mark 13:19 and 2 Peter 3:4.] Sovereign: All three persons of the Trinity became Sovereign, by creating so that God had something to be sovereign over, and as part of this He even became an Enemy, for example, to King Saul, as Samuel said, "the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy" 1 Sam. 28:16. Lord: "the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground" Gen. 2:7; etc. God of Abraham: Have "you not read in the book of Moses" Jesus aked, "in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?" Mark 12:26; Luke 22:37; etc. Abraham was not co-eternal with God and as the only necessary and self-existent being God could not have been "the God of Abraham" for eternity past, because if He had been, then Abraham would have been necessary from everlasting and God would not have been self-existent. Obedient to the Death: God the Son became obedient to the point of death Phil. 2:8. Eternally Embodied: God the Son became the possessor of a "glorious body" Phil. 3:21. More Glorified: "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit" John 15:8; etc. Author: God "became the author of eternal salvation" Heb. 5:9 and to do so God the Son first "became a curse for us" Gal. 3:13 and even "sin" 2 Cor. 5:21 and then as the last Adam He became a life-giving Spirit 1 Cor. 15:45. Etc. 23 - God's People Believe God Can Change His Mind. Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: "Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people... Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out... to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel [Jacob...] to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.' " Ex. 32:11-13; God promised Abraham to give him a son by Sarah and "Abraham said to God, 'Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!' " Gen. 17:16-18; Abraham pressed God to be merciful to Sodom saying, " 'Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city... Far be it from You to do such a thing...' So the Lord said, 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous... then I will spare all the place...' Then Abraham answered... 'Suppose there were five less than the fifty... Suppose there should be forty... Suppose thirty... Suppose twenty... Suppose ten should be found there?' And [God] said, 'I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.' " Gen. 18:23-32; "the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:19-20; David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted... Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate..." And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' " 2 Sam. 12:16, 21-22; "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them" Ps. 106:23; etc. 24 - God’s People Believe they can Change God’s Mind and they Do Change His Mind including as Jesus teaches. "Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God" Ex. 32:11-13; "I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the Lord was angry with you, to destroy you. But the Lord listened to me at that time also. And the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:19-20; Jeremiah believed people could change God's mind, and especially Moses and Samuel, as indicated by him writing this under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, "Then the Lord said to me, 'Even if Moses and Samuel stood before Me [even then!], My mind would [still] not be favorable toward this people...' " Jer. 15:1; "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them" Ps. 106:23; persistent widow Luke 18:4-7; Abraham pressing God to be merciful to Sodom and Gomorrah Gen. 18:23-32. . . . 27 - The Bible Describes Men as Omniscient, Unchanging, Having Sovereignty and Foreknowledge therefore having foreknowledge, or being described as immutable, sovereign or omniscient, does not require having knowledge of an exhaustively settled future. "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things" 1 John 2:20; "concerning you, my brethren... you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge" Rom. 15:14 (see especially the Greek); "God will hear, and afflict them, even He who abides from of old. Selah Because they do not change" Ps. 55:19; "They knew me from the first" Acts 26:5 (see the Greek, foreknowledge), regarding sovereignty, the New King James Version, for example (though produced by Calvinist translators) never once uses the word sovereign or sovereignty for God but does once state, "Saul established his sovereignty" 1 Sam. 14:47. [See also 1 Cor. 13:2.] . . . 30 - God Gains Experiential Knowledge. Of course Jesus is the eternal Second Person of the Godhead (though reformed theologians James White and R.C. Sproul Jr. seem to deny this out of their commitment to the pagan Greek philosophical absolute version of immutability), and even as the Son Jesus learned, for "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered" Heb. 5:8; "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" Luke 2:52 so not only did the Son gain experiential knowledge, so too the Father increased in favor with His Son experientially while watching Him grow through the Incarnation; God the Son "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death" Phil. 2:7-8; against impassibility, the Bible says of "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" Heb. 12:2; Jesus endured hostility Heb. 12:3; most Calvinists deny that God has all knowledge by rejecting that He has or even can have experiential knowledge. Yet the Bible explicitly declares that God has experiential knowledge as with the "go down and look" see-for-Myself verses during which God the Son, pre-figuring the actual Incarnation, had temporarily emptied Himself of much knowledge, power, and presence. Scripture also demonstrates God's experiential knowledge by the Incarnation-related temptation verses and by the "learned" verses (just above). And of course, agreed to by all, God does not have the experiential knowledge of what it is like for Him to sin. Yes, God the Son gained firsthand experiential knowledge when He became a "curse for us" and became "sin for us" as Peter and Paul wrote (Gal. 3:13; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24), not though by His own sinning but by taking upon Himself the sin of the world. So countless human beings and angels have knowledge which God lacks, to His glory!, the devastating and unholy experiential knowledge of what it is like to sin. Settled viewers deny also that God has the experiential knowledge of knowing what it is like for Him to learn. And Calvinists and even Arminians deny that God has the experiential knowledge of planning things yet future (to Him), and knowing things yet future (to Him), and then seeing those things come to pass. For by the unbiblical claim that God is outside of time, Calvinists, etc., deny that He can know (or experience) anything in sequence. So Calvinists view predestination and foreknowedge as mere figures of speech, whereas we open theists believe these are literally true of God as in Acts 2, the "foreknowledge of God". We affirm that GOD HIMSELF actually has foreknowledge, that is, that He knows some things in advance. And that God Himself actually predestines, that is, that HE plans things before HE then brings them to pass. Selah. If you disagree with this, ignore the following verses. But if you agree that open theists are correct that God literally has foreknowledge (Acts 2:23; Rom. 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; [Ex. 3:19; Deut. 31:21; Ps. 139:4; Isa. 42:9; 44:7; Jer. 1:5]) and literally predestines (Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:5, 11; [Acts 3:18; 4:27-28; Isa. 46:10; Dan. 2:8]), then we can add these verses to this Category 30. Thus, by denying that God has experiential knowledge, Calvinists, etc., do not believe Him omniscient, i.e., that He has all knowledge, for their theology inherently rejects that God can possess an entire category of knowledge, namely, experiential knowledge, including what it is like for Him to learn, to have One's favor grow, to suffer, to endure, see brought to pass things known and planned in advance, etc. See also, God increases and learns, above. |
Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism
Yes , I believe God became a man. Do you not believe God was in heaven while Jesus walked the earth ? John 3:13
Lol, no I do not believe God was always a man. Do you believe God in heaven changed when He took on Himself the form of a servant ?
Phl 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
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Arial
Active member
Go back and read Gen 1:1-5 again, or if you never have read it, for the first time.
How do you figure that? We are talking about God creating everything that is (the Bible says that to but I'm not going to look it up for you). We are talking about God, not people making pocketbooks and shoes and cars.
Hmmm. Wonder why it is we live, and think, and move all within time? Past, present, future. I wonder Who put us here? I remember arriving at a similar view of time as you---oh about a hundred years ago on LSD. I laugh at myself over that now.
That was not my intent and such a statement as you make here has nothing that actually disputes what I said. I guess I assumed too much. That a Christian would know their Bible better than to not know that God is outside of time. I will give you a couple of examples where it is obvious otherwise the scriptures would be lying. Eph 4:6; Eph 1:20-21; Acts 7:49; Ps 148:13. And don't forget that a day is as a thousand years o Him and a thousand years as a day. Have you heard of the word eternal and eternity as applied to God?
God entering time implies that He wasn't within time until He entered it. And by enter I mean He moved about as we do, within time---past, present, future, voluntarily within those bounds. God the Son did that once, in Christ, completed His mission, and returned as Son to His eternal state, with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The human logic you are trying to use to explain and define God will never get the job done accurately. God is unique. There is no other like Him anywhere, never has been, never will be. You can't define what is eternal with finite, human language or ideas, or compare it to anything in our known world. It takes faith to believe what He says about Himself.
Arial
Active member
If time is just an idea, try walking out of it or functioning at all outside of it.
I know very well what it says. It says nothing about time being created. It says the heavens, the earth, and light, were created on the first day.
It says nothing at all about time being created.
Through reason.
You cannot create something that requires itself to be created.
Thus, "before time" is an oxymoron.
Again, "time" isn't an object. It cannot be created. Therefore, God did not create it, and thus, it isn't included in "everything God created," by definition.
Don't be coy.
If you're going to reference scripture and use it as your argument, you need to at least reference it.
With that out of the way...
Are you referring to Colossians 1:16-17?
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Sorry, but that says nothing about time.
Duh.
We live, think, and move in the present.
We don't do so in the past, and the future doesn't exist yet.
Again, we don't live in the past, we don't think in the past, and we don't move in the past.
And again, the future doesn't exist yet.
I could make a comment on your mental health here as a result of that, but I won't, because it would probably be false.
I will say that just because you believed something at one point, and then rejected it and started believing something else, does not make the first thing you believed false by necessity.
That's what you did, regardless of your intent.
An argument from repetition is a logical fallacy.
Nothing more needs to be said. Address what has already been said, please.
The Bible shows God as in time, always.
It never shows Him outside of time.
I'm going to hold you to your assertion here. If the following verses do not say that God is outside of time, then you need to repent to God, for you are bearing false witness against Him by lying about His word.
13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above the earth and heaven.
14 And He has exalted the horn of His people,
The praise of all His saints—
Of the children of Israel,
A people near to Him.
Praise the Lord!
Psalm 148:13-14
I see "above the earth and heaven," but I don't see "above" or "outside of time."
Do you?
God’s True Tabernacle
44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’
Acts 7:44-50
Again, I'm seeing that Heaven is where God resides, and that Earth is His footstool.
I don't see anything that says that God is outside of time. Do you?
Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 1:15-22
There is nothing here that says that God is outside of time. Above prinicipalities, powers, mights, and dominions, and every name that is named, sure, but those are referring to governments and nations and tribes, and "names" refers to uses of authority.
As for "not only in this age, but also in that which is to come," that implies endless time, not timelessness...
Ephesians 4:
4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I see nothing in that verse that refers to time. You'll have to point it out and make the argument.
So far, you're 0 for 4.
On the other hand...
I have posted several posts with entire paragraphs of verses that show that God is "in time."
CLASSIC!
I recommend reading the very next verse, which literally explains what is meant by that.
Or go read post 307.
"Eternal" and "eternity" mean "endless time," not timelessness, unless you're starting with pagan Greek philosophy.
What the Bible does not say about God:
- is timeless
- in an eternal now
- without sequence or succession
- without moment or duration
- atemporal and outside of time
- not was, nor will be, but only is
- has no past
- has no future.
What the Bible DOES say about God:
is - and was - and is to come - whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - before all things - forever and ever - the Ancient of Days - from before the ages of the ages - from ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - from of old - remains forever - eternal - immortal - the Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God's years are without number - rock of ages/everlasting strength - manifest in His own time - waiting until - everlasting Father - alive forevermore - always lives - forever - continually - the eternal God - God’s years never end - from everlasting to everlasting - from that time forward, even forever - and of His kingdom there will be no end. (references here)
You can't enter something that by definition doesn't exist.
Addressed in post #382.
Which is a sequence. God the Son left Heaven, came to earth, preached, went to the cross, and ascended back into heaven, in that order.
Again, time is a precondition for actions. God left Heaven. Time is a precondition of that.
No such thing.
There is only one kind of logic, and that's logic.
It does well enough that even children can understand it. You, however, not so much, it seems.
So?
Again, so?
You just did.
"eternal"
That's human language.
Thanks for playing.
Blind faith isn't faith.
Nor is believing the irrational.
This makes no sense. It's irrational. You can't walk out of or function outside of something that, by definition, does not exist.
So God went from [not being a man] to [being a man.] (While still remaining as God, of course.)
That's sequence. A change. Thus, your entire argument up to now has been disproven.
Now you're arguing my position. Thanks.
Time isn't a "thing."
It's a concept. It's a convention of language.
No.
Post 382.
Seriously time isn’t a thing ? Well there is no debating with anyone who shifts what God created into a concept. By that reasoning one would have to believe invisible( which time is) and visible are also not things but just concepts, and yet scripture says all things were created by God. Nice dodge and work around of scripture though.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't believe for a minute that God's plan was for Adam to obey His command. You're saying God didn't know what He was doing when He created man with a free will and put him in a body of flesh?
glorydaz
Well-known member
That is not a verse limiting God.