On the omniscience of God

Clete

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So ... unclear. Are you Nestorian or not? Do you admit Mary is the mother of God or no?
It is VERY likely that the phrase "mother of God" is packed with meaning that you have not properly articulated. I know I wouldn't answer that question as asked. As asked, it implies that Mary pre-existed God. That's obvious stupidity. Mary is a member of God's creation and could not be the mother of God - per se. The most accurate way to answer such a question, if one were compelled to do so, would be to say that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus, but I'm not sure that I would trust even that much of an answer inside the mind of a Catholic. There's just too much theological mumbo-jumbo rolling around to give a straight answer.
 

Lon

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So ... unclear. Are you Nestorian or not? Do you admit Mary is the mother of God or no?
It is a packed question: here is the answer. Did you know most of Mariology in the RC was from the congregation, not the priests? They allowed heresy to enter when they began worshipping her (not just revere her). In your question, you 'intimate' that idolatry, raising her very high in your esteem. Part of this, in you I believe from your intimations, goes back to Pelagianism: that you believe Mary was born sinless. You 'can' have a sin nature at birth and not sin (else Christ couldn't have been tempted). In effect, Mariology often denies Jesus was born man and "tempted in all ways we were tempted" scriptures. Think on that: Many Catholics, especially in Latin America, inadvertently become the very thing they were trying to eschew over the error.
 

Lon

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Not quite true. It's for both, since a teacher needs to assess the student.
As I said, as a non-omniscient teacher, I know how all my students are going to do (I'm a good teacher). The test rather shows what I already know "to the student" (and their parents).
Then why test? Just tell the student the grade they are getting on the test you aren't giving them.
Because even in failure, they learn.
Yes, and that applies to some questions...not all.
I'm a very good teacher. Isn't God much much much (exceedingly abundantly even) better?
Not if God actually doesn't know in some cases. But the question that raises is, "What does God not know?"
In most theological circles, it isn't a priority question. Omniscient is omniscient. Do I at least appreciate Open Theism asking? Yes, but the answer for almost all of us is "yep, that too."
Both.

Open theism doesn't assume to know the purpose of the question (not necessarily "test").
Why not? It is also a good question! If there is a test, the purpose of the test should be on the table. Realize most "so I will know" scriptures are English translations. If your theology is formed by English, it is the translators fault. Such, I do believe, is why "God changed His mind" is understandable. The culprit is well-meaning translators.
Assumption on your part.
Not when that is exactly what your theological position is doing. Open Theism is very interested in how God performs on tests, as the teacher.
It's not the subject matter the teacher gains access to, but the student's knowledge of the subject matter the teacher is testing for.
Exactly.
Disagree. But I may not be typical.
I think you could even leave 'may' off of that.
I don't think this works. God giving a test suggests the test is needed for God, at least sometimes. "Adam where are you?" tests Adam in order for God to find out Adam's condition, not Adam's location.
I don't even think His condition. In this case, it was a needed confrontation.
But you've admitted here that the teacher is finding something out--whether they can retain the knowledge for themselves. And so it is with God's questions sometimes--God is looking to see if the student has learned the lesson, something He doesn't necessarily know already.
I didn't admit that at all! Now, it is certainly true I'm not omniscient, thus a test simply ratifies/justifies a grade I'd have given without them taking the test. Btw, I had a professor who did exactly that! No test grade, just what he calculated what kind of students we were! I'd aced every test and paper save one B+ and he gave me a B!!! I should have contested, but I didn't really like him and wanted distance. At any rate, we are in dialogue over what-ifs and a good thing, but maybe you have to be a teacher to get some of this :idunno:
You've gone further than I did against the local idea that God doesn't know, by saying God will never know. I'm confident the locals don't believe that.
How would that work? Video? If God isn't omnipresent, how will He be just in judgement? Chalk this one up for the difference between what Open Theists must anthropomorphize and what the rest of Christianity must, over the difference. It clearly reveals what is at stake between the disagreement. I think we can leave the stark contrast as is, just showing the great point of contention. I literally believe God knows the number of hairs on your head at this present moment.
Not Open Theism as a system, I dare say. But some Open Theists. I know you complained about the disparity amongst Open Theists before, because it's harder to argue against, but it does exist.

The "not one" and "all numbered" are "extremes", so IMO they don't allow for any sparrows that are not known or any hairs that are not numbered.

Again, I count myself an Open Theist, yet I don't mince words about the Father's knowledge. So, if you need to complain about some in this matter, please caveat "Open Theists".

I don't. Because I don't see why it is important that God not know a fact about the past, nor do I see scripture saying there are facts about the past He is unaware of. Rather the opposite, as I pointed out.
I concur, you are an Open Theist of a different color. Some of my intimation here isn't to you in specific but for thread posterity. It is a greater conversation about Omniscience and so appreciate you as different as well.
On the Open Theism Systematic, I think it would be an interesting project. Taking Open Theism to its extremes (our future choices are not known to Him) will have some profound impacts on a number of contested doctrines, including eschatology.
Agree. The first Arians died off, too much infighting and not nearly enough collegiate work. There is no Open Theist scholar who has produced a Bible commentary for analysis, etc. Open Theism is yet an infant among theologies, but TOL is perhaps a good groundwork of beginnings.
 

JudgeRightly

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This has always been the biggest problem I've had with Openness. This makes God know less than us.

No, it doesn't.

God has access to FAR more information (regarding the present, and thus the past as well) than any human ever could.

It's absurd on its face

Saying it doesn't make it so.

and makes me wonder if you believe in God at all.

We do.

How could He know less than us?

The answer is simple: He doesn't know less than us. He knows far more, and thus, is able to predict with great accuracy the future, ESPECIALLY since He will have a hand in bringing about the future He desires.

As you say, this is "extreme" Openness, but also as you say, there is "disparity amongst Open Theists", which would lead one to ask, "Well then what is 'canonical' Openness?"

I mean what are the essentials? Because I don't want to dismiss Openness over "our future choices are not known to Him" if under canonical Openness, God at least knows what we know. That's at least not ridiculous.

"Canonical" XD

It's called the Bible, sir.

The Bible doesn't speak in terms of "openness" or "settled futures."

It speaks in terms of relationships and outcomes of actions.

Go watch the video from Godisopen that I posted where he is in a debate on Isaiah 40-48.

And I rail against "our future choices are not known to Him" because we each know really well what all the people close to us will do, especially contingently, meaning given situation A we know they will do X, given situation B, they will do Y, and given C, Z, and so on. God at least knows that. Seemingly, self-evidently.

Let me put it this way:

It's not so much "our future choices are not known to Him" as it is "our likely future choices are known to him, but we could still decide otherwise," and also "God does not infallibly know the future."

The reason we deny that God infallibly knows the future is because the following argument removes God's freedom, not just man's, and the Bible throughout indicates that God is not only free, but capable of responding to men's choices and actions:


T = You will answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am.

(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]


(https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/)

So when we combine this knowledge with God's knowledge of future situations unconnected with our free will choices, meaning situations that arise independent of human choice, then not only does He know if A then X and if B then Y and if C then Z, but He also knows, for example, that situation B will obtain.

Will obtain... what?

So He knows if situation B obtains,

Obtains what?

we will choose free choice Y. Which is just what we know too, about all those close to us.

Supra.

And He also knows situations B will obtain,

Obtains what?

When you end your sentence with this, it no longer makes any sense.

which is beyond our knowledge, but is within His knowledge.

Which is consistent with the OV.

So that's more of an argument to support why I find the notion "our future choices are not known to Him" PRIMA FACIE unserious.

When you straw man a position, it's no surprise that you'll be able to knock it down easily.
 

Lon

Well-known member
This is why claiming Christ knew what it was like to be a man, prior to the incarnation, is heretical:

I get that people (and apparently Chatgpt) 'think' it looks like a heresy. Note that even Chat GPT could not mention the supposed heresy! There is no name for it supposedly. My point (and only this far): God 'made' man. Chat GPT is interestingly, Open Theist! Who knew? If God is omniscient, it means something. We know God walked as 'the son of man' in the O. T. There is some acquaintance necessarily, 'what it is like to be a man.' He knows our interworkings Psalms says. Did He ever have a headache prior to incarnation? No, at least not that we are aware of. The 'reason' Jesus grew in stature is because He 'emptied' Himself. That is likely a 'first time,' at least that we are aware of. To make this a heresy, you'd literally have to have a verse that says "God didn't know what it was like to be a man." The incarnation showed that Jesus was tempted in every way you and I are (Hebrews). Of course I agree on many many points with you. My point is (and what I said): He became that which He was familiar, and that which was man. In His emptied form, He indeed grew in wisdom and stature developmentally. There is no disagreement with that either.

The largest reason you want this to be a heresy is for Open Theism reasons. If this were true to the end that you are implying I've said (I didn't, He likely never had a headache prior to becoming a man); then it'd do severe damage to Open Theism. Did He know what a headache was? Yes!! He created those muscles and put those nerves in place 'for' that. Really, this is an argument about His omniscience (this thread).
 
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Derf

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This has always been the biggest problem I've had with Openness. This makes God know less than us. It's absurd on its face and makes me wonder if you believe in God at all. How could He know less than us?
Why do you think that God knows less than we do in that case? If we know our future decisions, then God, who knows our thoughts before we speak them, could know our future decisions, too. But if our future decisions are still future, then we don't know them, and God doesn't know them. He doesn't know less than us in that instance.
As you say, this is "extreme" Openness, but also as you say, there is "disparity amongst Open Theists", which would lead one to ask, "Well then what is 'canonical' Openness?"
My point was to take the Openness idea to its extremes, not to suggest a new breed of extreme Open Theism. An extreme might be what Openness theology would lead us to think about the beginning of the world, for instance, or the time of the Apocalypse.
I mean what are the essentials? Because I don't want to dismiss Openness over "our future choices are not known to Him" if under canonical Openness, God at least knows what we know. That's at least not ridiculous.
Supra.
And I rail against "our future choices are not known to Him" because we each know really well what all the people close to us will do,
We do? In every given instance?
especially contingently, meaning given situation A we know they will do X, given situation B, they will do Y, and given C, Z, and so on. God at least knows that. Seemingly, self-evidently. So when we combine this knowledge with God's knowledge of future situations unconnected with our free will choices, meaning situations that arise independent of human choice, then not only does He know if A then X and if B then Y and if C then Z, but He also knows, for example, that situation B will obtain.

So He knows if situation B obtains, we will choose free choice Y. Which is just what we know too, about all those close to us.

And He also knows situations B will obtain, which is beyond our knowledge, but is within His knowledge.

So that's more of an argument to support why I find the notion "our future choices are not known to Him" PRIMA FACIE unserious.
Do you always make the same choice? Given the options of Fruit Loops or Raisin Bran (or pick two that you like), will you always choose Fruit Loops when both are available? I like to have just butter on my waffles sometimes, and sometimes I have butter and syrup. Or peanut butter and honey. And I can't tell you today what I will have tomorrow, although it likely will be just butter, since it is a choice I like more. If I don't know what I'm going to choose, then how can you or my family, even, know what I will choose. The choice hasn't been made yet. So God is not lacking knowledge in a case where no knowledge is available.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Do you always make the same choice? Given the options of Fruit Loops or Raisin Bran?
Yes. Incredibly predictable 0.o Ice cream: Vanilla Cereal: Peanut Butter. I do eat something else when not available, but my choice is cancelled out. It is rather "yes" or "no" to chocolate ice cream (always 'no thank you'). Relationally (what is generally at stake for Open Theist concern), I would laugh if you asked if I wanted chocolate as an inside joke. I have no problem with you knowing me this predictably: I'm not threatened at all, in fact think you care, when you never but offer me vanilla ice cream. Because it is 'my choice?' I don't think it is. I just like one, not the other. Choice isn't really involved (an illusion). God 'made me' liking one flavor. I am in bliss when I am following my nature, however I'm enslaved to it by Open intimation.

Now, let me entertain this from an Open concern: "What if you 'liked' being sinful?" What if that were your proclivity? In that, relationship is indeed involved and 'choice' isn't so much 'my' choice but 'our' choice. JR often says love has to be a choice for it to be 'love.' I'd rather intimate that 'relationship' is the context, not choice per say. Adam and Eve, created to love in the Garden, weren't unloving. Choice isn't the motivator, being loved and created that way, rather. Jesus, said, "If you love someone who loves you, what is that? Don't even heathen do that?" I have some agreement with JR on point, but in that love is a choice for us, who struggle against a nature that dictates and eye for an eye instead. In Christ, we have (are supposed to have) a different nature. Love is the high road, but I don't think we really have a choice one way or the other: Jesus will make us into lovers as He is. Rather 'choice' is the high road that is love (only one choice for us, and it has already been made 'for' us (not our choice, we accept Jesus making it for us). If "I don't want to be like Jesus!" then we can't (again, no choice, still in our sin). We are learning to follow our new nature (if it is there). TOL is a good place to see if that is happening, if we are maturing.
 

Derf

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Yes. Incredibly predictable 0.o Ice cream: Vanilla Cereal: Peanut Butter. I do eat something else when not available, but my choice is cancelled out.
But I said "pick two that you like." You picked one that you like. If you have nothing that you waver between, then perhaps everyone around you always knows exactly what your future choices are. But imagine for a moment that vanilla didn't exist. Would you always pick chocolate over butter pecan? Would you always pick ice cream over cookies? Would you always put just butter on your waffles? Is it Butterworth's or Aunt Jamima? Crunchy or smooth peanut butter? Are you really telling me that you never pick spaghetti over lasagna, chicken over beef, romaine lettuce over iceberg (or whatever it is where you like two things equally well)? Please answer the question asked, instead of jumping to a different question.
It is rather "yes" or "no" to chocolate ice cream (always 'no thank you'). Relationally (what is generally at stake for Open Theist concern), I would laugh if you asked if I wanted chocolate as an inside joke. I have no problem with you knowing me this predictably: I'm not threatened at all, in fact think you care, when you never but offer me vanilla ice cream. Because it is 'my choice?' I don't think it is. I just like one, not the other. Choice isn't really involved (an illusion). God 'made me' liking one flavor. I am in bliss when I am following my nature, however I'm enslaved to it by Open intimation.

Now, let me entertain this from an Open concern: "What if you 'liked' being sinful?" What if that were your proclivity? In that, relationship is indeed involved and 'choice' isn't so much 'my' choice but 'our' choice. JR often says love has to be a choice for it to be 'love.' I'd rather intimate that 'relationship' is the context, not choice per say. Adam and Eve, created to love in the Garden, weren't unloving. Choice isn't the motivator, being loved and created that way, rather. Jesus, said, "If you love someone who loves you, what is that? Don't even heathen do that?" I have some agreement with JR on point, but in that love is a choice for us, who struggle against a nature that dictates and eye for an eye instead.
Not just a nature, but God dictates it, too.
In Christ, we have (are supposed to have) a different nature. Love is the high road, but I don't think we really have a choice one way or the other: Jesus will make us into lovers as He is. Rather 'choice' is the high road that is love (only one choice for us, and it has already been made 'for' us (not our choice, we accept Jesus making it for us). If "I don't want to be like Jesus!" then we can't (again, no choice, still in our sin). We are learning to follow our new nature (if it is there). TOL is a good place to see if that is happening, if we are maturing.
Sure. And in the midst of following are new nature, we still choose badly sometimes. But you are saying, I think, that God knows which times we will choose the wrong and which the right, which means that we aren't the ones choosing.
 

Lon

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But I said "pick two that you like." You picked one that you like. If you have nothing that you waver between, then perhaps everyone around you always knows exactly what your future choices are.
Yes, but it is not really a choice but 'to you.' I already know. Am I stuck? Predestined? Yes, as far as vanilla. Do I care? Yes, but not in the way you do. You want the choice, I just want vanilla, predetermined or otherwise, it make no difference. At heart of this conversation is whether we have 'free' will or not. I'm saying 'choice' doesn't have much to do with relationship, love does. If you were a typical Open Theist, 'choice' is the ultimate gift and ultimate measure of love. I question whether that is true. I don't think 'choice' is what defines us. Christ-likeness is, and what I think is missing most on TOL. We need to emulate our Savior: His will, not mine.

Here is a truism: What I love about Derf is Jesus in Him. What I don't like very much about Derf is when he isn't like Him. We love the Jesus in another. We choose to be kind, compassionate, gentle, loving, peaceful, patient, good, to one who doesn't 'deserve' it. That is perhaps a 'choice' but we don't care 'how' a person gets there as much as we care they do it. Choice is the 'how' doing it is the 'what' and much more important. I think OV caught up in that which isn't as important.
But imagine for a moment that vanilla didn't exist. Would you always pick chocolate over butter pecan?
Vice versa. It isn't really choice, it is taste. I either tell you "I was made this way" (most likely) or "I choose pecan" (negligible).
Would you always pick ice cream over cookies?
No, but it isn't something I 'choose' so much as what 'taste' dictates to me. I'm trying to talk about how much 'choice' plays in our daily lives. I'd say 'negligible.' The knee-jerk is against Calvinism which intimate no free choice or will. If you'll entertain: It isn't so much 'no free choice' but rather that it is about the idea that God can know what we will choose because it is negligible as a consideration. In effect, it doesn't matter if I 'choose' to love, but rather that I do it, have it. Relationship is based on 'doing' for one another 'wanting' is negligible other than as it is our nature and we need a new nature in Christ and He has to put it in us (choice isn't really a choice of import, we have to have His nature to be saved). Rather then, the actions and what happens are the thing, not the choosing thereof.
Would you always put just butter on your waffles? Is it Butterworth's or Aunt Jamima? Crunchy or smooth peanut butter? Are you really telling me that you never pick spaghetti over lasagna, chicken over beef, romaine lettuce over iceberg (or whatever it is where you like two things equally well)? Please answer the question asked, instead of jumping to a different question.
Don't get me wrong, we have 'choices' obviously. It is rather that they don't really make anything meaningful. It is 'actuating' an thing that makes it meaningful, choice is merely an impetus for getting to 'love' for instance.
Not just a nature, but God dictates it, too.

Sure. And in the midst of following are new nature, we still choose badly sometimes.
Is that 'good' to have 'choice to do otherwise,' then?
But you are saying, I think, that God knows which times we will choose the wrong and which the right, which means that we aren't the ones choosing.
We are responsible, not for choice, but for action. It is rather 'tempted' enacted upon rather than 'choice/free-will.' Granted we are culpable for that, and Open Theism goes to 'choice' as the root. I'm more than questioning that it is the actual point of interest. Free will is part of many theologian's conversation. It 'seems' the likely place because we have a sense of independence and 'self.' All good for contemplation, but I've gone further in my contemplations specifically because of so many many 'deny self' passages from Jesus. It intimates we need to rethink, as a scriptural directive 'our will' vs His.
 

Derf

Well-known member
You say yes, but you still are answering a different question. The question began with "pick two things that you like", and I could clarify again that I mean two things you like equally well. Vanilla and chocolate don't qualify, so you will have to let that choice go, if you are interested in the question I posed. If you are merely asserting that you would rather talk about a different question, then please assert that rather than hijack my question.
. If you were a typical Open Theist, 'choice' is the ultimate gift and ultimate measure of love.
Is it? Even to typical OTers? Choice isn't a gift, but a burden if we can choose wrongly.
I question whether that is true. I don't think 'choice' is what defines us. Christ-likeness is, and what I think is missing most on TOL. We need to emulate our Savior: His will, not mine.
Non sequitur.
Here is a truism: What I love about Derf is Jesus in Him. What I don't like very much about Derf is when he isn't like Him. We love the Jesus in another. We choose to be kind, compassionate, gentle, loving, peaceful, patient, good, to one who doesn't 'deserve' it. That is perhaps a 'choice' but we don't care 'how' a person gets there as much as we care they do it. Choice is the 'how' doing it is the 'what' and much more important. I think OV caught up in that which isn't as important.
Like asserting a different question?
Vice versa. It isn't really choice, it is taste. I either tell you "I was made this way" (most likely) or "I choose pecan" (negligible).
Fine. Pick two items you are equally fond of, then answer the question.
No, but it isn't something I 'choose' so much as what 'taste' dictates to me.
Both are equally tasteful to YOU in this scenario.
I'm trying to talk about how much 'choice' plays in our daily lives. I'd say 'negligible.' The knee-jerk is against Calvinism which intimate no free choice or will. If you'll entertain: It isn't so much 'no free choice' but rather that it is about the idea that God can know what we will choose because it is negligible as a consideration.
Huh?
In effect, it doesn't matter if I 'choose' to love, but rather that I do it, have it. Relationship is based on 'doing' for one another 'wanting' is negligible other than as it is our nature and we need a new nature in Christ and He has to put it in us (choice isn't really a choice of import, we have to have His nature to be saved). Rather then, the actions and what happens are the thing, not the choosing thereof.
Non sequitor.
Don't get me wrong, we have 'choices' obviously. It is rather that they don't really make anything meaningful. It is 'actuating' an thing that makes it meaningful, choice is merely an impetus for getting to 'love' for instance.
We might be getting somewhere. If you select two things you are equally fond of, and the choice if one over the other is absolutely negligible, do you know which you will choose every time you have the choice for the rest of your life? Does God know?
Is that 'good' to have 'choice to do otherwise,' then?

We are responsible, not for choice, but for action.
Red herring.
It is rather 'tempted' enacted upon rather than 'choice/free-will.' Granted we are culpable for that, and Open Theism goes to 'choice' as the root. I'm more than questioning that it is the actual point of interest. Free will is part of many theologian's conversation. It 'seems' the likely place because we have a sense of independence and 'self.'
Or maybe that it makes the most sense of the world and of God's relationship with us.
All good for contemplation, but I've gone further in my contemplations specifically because of so many many 'deny self' passages from Jesus. It intimates we need to rethink, as a scriptural directive 'our will' vs His.
You haven't gone further if you've dismissed the point, as you have.
 

Lon

Well-known member
You say yes, but you still are answering a different question. The question began with "pick two things that you like", and I could clarify again that I mean two things you like equally well. Vanilla and chocolate don't qualify, so you will have to let that choice go, if you are interested in the question I posed. If you are merely asserting that you would rather talk about a different question, then please assert that rather than hijack my question.
However consterned you happen to be, the question and discussion is about the 'need' of choice, specifically more about whether you need to 'choose to love' for it to be meaningful. In this is a deep conversation about what love is and is not. I don't believe 'choice' but a small player.
Is it? Even to typical OTers? Choice isn't a gift, but a burden if we can choose wrongly.
We are made like our Creator. That is important. Rather, we are talking about 'choice' being a distinguishing feature of our imago deo. I believe it part of our make-up, but not so much when it comes to love, following Christ, etc. Once the bigger decision to do something is internalized, we no longer are concerned about 'to do otherwise' because that road was travelled long ago. Rather, what we do according to that new nature is the important thing.
Non sequitur.
Christ-likeness is a non sequitur???? We are talking about 'choice' but I'd insist, if you are His, your choice is made. What virtue is there in "I can choose not to follow Him today?" In effect, you are intimating "I have to be able to sin, to be loving." Free will choice has clear avenues to what we believe is important. I'm rightly questioning, because it doesn't add up to be anything for a theology. Free will theology is primarily concerned then, with that which is negligible.
Like asserting a different question?
Needs explanation. I've no idea where you are going.
Fine. Pick two items you are equally fond of, then answer the question.
Following Christ and loving my neighbor. Two different things, strongly tied together: "the second is like it (the first)."
Both are equally tasteful to YOU in this scenario.

Huh?

Non sequitor.

We might be getting somewhere. If you select two things you are equally fond of, and the choice if one over the other is absolutely negligible, do you know which you will choose every time you have the choice for the rest of your life? Does God know?
See? This is exactly what an Open Theist alone is interested in, specifically because it has become a paramount to his/her theology: "I, me, mine." If your theology is so caught up in 'you' that it loses, upstages Him, it might be serviceable to question that paradigm. It is literally uplifting 1) independence that "God can't know or I don't have it!" and 2) elevating self-interest and choice to a very high status, as is necessary with 'free-will theists and theology.' It is about 'self.' Why my disdain: Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
My nature is not His nature, so my choices of will are not his will, until salvation. After: a new nature, new will.
Red herring.
Of course you'd see it that way, it is uncomfortable to believe your will is of little/no consequence, and worse, against Him. There is no way any of us are believers if we retain desire of the old nature. It is there, as Paul says in Romans, but 'thanks be to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!" Romans 7:24,25 That is non sequitur and red herring? Think again about that which you find uncomfortable and eschew the knee-jerk. This is important. Luke 22:42
Or maybe that it makes the most sense of the world and of God's relationship with us.
Sure, if we are caught up in our own identity and self-interest (and we are). My question is rather 'should we be? When we lose our life (our will included) we shall surely find it.
You haven't gone further if you've dismissed the point, as you have.
Or vice versa? I'm shocked, a little, that there is pushback on this.
 

Derf

Well-known member
However consterned you happen to be, the question and discussion is about the 'need' of choice, specifically more about whether you need to 'choose to love' for it to be meaningful. In this is a deep conversation about what love is and is not. I don't believe 'choice' but a small player.
Ok, but you think it so small a player that you aren't willing to answer, but prefer to change the question. Why?
We are made like our Creator. That is important. Rather, we are talking about 'choice' being a distinguishing feature of our imago deo. I believe it part of our make-up, but not so much when it comes to love, following Christ, etc. Once the bigger decision to do something is internalized, we no longer are concerned about 'to do otherwise' because that road was travelled long ago. Rather, what we do according to that new nature is the important thing.

Christ-likeness is a non sequitur????
Yes, to the question I was asking.
We are talking about 'choice' but I'd insist, if you are His, your choice is made.
For which cereal I will eat today? How did you get there?
What virtue is there in "I can choose not to follow Him today?" In effect, you are intimating "I have to be able to sin, to be loving." Free will choice has clear avenues to what we believe is important. I'm rightly questioning, because it doesn't add up to be anything for a theology. Free will theology is primarily concerned then, with that which is negligible.
No, but hopefully it considers how consistent the theology is in the extremes. A theology that isn't, isn't worth having.

So if you are consistent, are you willing to say that God doesn't know what cereal you will eat tomorrow, or 10 years from tomorrow
Needs explanation. I've no idea where you are going.
Because you are off on a different conversation. Let's get back to the question: does God know what type of cereal you will choose tomorrow.
Following Christ and loving my neighbor. Two different things, strongly tied together: "the second is like it (the first)."
You never have to choose between the two, so they don't fit the criterion.
See? This is exactly what an Open Theist alone is interested in,
It is? But I'm interested in many things. However, when I ask a question, I'm primarily interested in the answer to that question for the moment.
specifically because it has become a paramount to his/her theology: "I, me, mine." If your theology is so caught up in 'you' that it loses, upstages Him, it might be serviceable to question that paradigm. It is literally uplifting 1) independence that "God can't know or I don't have it!" and 2) elevating self-interest and choice to a very high status, as is necessary with 'free-will theists and theology.' It is about 'self.' Why my disdain: Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
My nature is not His nature, so my choices of will are not his will, until salvation. After: a new nature, new will.
So, your choices of cereal will be better or worse with the new nature?
Of course you'd see it that way, it is uncomfortable to believe your will is of little/no consequence, and worse, against Him. There is no way any of us are believers if we retain desire of the old nature. It is there, as Paul says in Romans, but 'thanks be to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!" Romans 7:24,25 That is non sequitur and red herring? Think again about that which you find uncomfortable and eschew the knee-jerk. This is important. Luke 22:42

Sure, if we are caught up in our own identity and self-interest (and we are). My question is rather 'should we be? When we lose our life (our will included) we shall surely find it.

Or vice versa? I'm shocked, a little, that there is pushback on this.
Yet the choice to do something or not do something is not governed by God, only the ability to carry out the choice ("action" you called it). Even that verse, and the ones about submitting our will to His, do not give the reader your non answers to my question.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
... It has little to do with Mary ...

Yes. It's a case of us not liking our mariology, and so we adjust our christology. Then our mariology changes to something more acceptable. But we distorted and ruined our christology to do it. We have to have correct christology, and let the chips fall where they may with mariology.

It is VERY likely that the phrase "mother of God" is packed with meaning that you have not properly articulated. I know I wouldn't answer that question as asked. As asked, it implies that Mary pre-existed God. That's obvious stupidity. Mary is a member of God's creation and could not be the mother of God - per se. The most accurate way to answer such a question, if one were compelled to do so, would be to say that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus, but I'm not sure that I would trust even that much of an answer inside the mind of a Catholic. There's just too much theological mumbo-jumbo rolling around to give a straight answer.

What is the difference between "biological mother" and mother simpliciter, in common parlance?

Nothing.

It is a packed question: here is the answer. Did you know most of Mariology in the RC was from the congregation, not the priests? They allowed heresy to enter when they began worshipping her (not just revere her). In your question, you 'intimate' that idolatry, raising her very high in your esteem. Part of this, in you I believe from your intimations, goes back to Pelagianism: that you believe Mary was born sinless. You 'can' have a sin nature at birth and not sin (else Christ couldn't have been tempted). In effect, Mariology often denies Jesus was born man and "tempted in all ways we were tempted" scriptures. Think on that: Many Catholics, especially in Latin America, inadvertently become the very thing they were trying to eschew over the error.

She's the mother of God. That's all. That's all we're talking about.

It's you folks who are smuggling in hidden meaning to the word 'mother' that doesn't belong there, and is never present whenever we're talking about any other mother.

Compare a "surrogate" mother. This woman carries and bears a child unrelated to her genetically. Is she the child's mother? That's a tricky case. Now consider a woman pregnant with a child who IS genetically related—is she the mother? That's not tricky—right? That's ... straight forward.

It's you guys who are crooked.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
No, it doesn't.

God has access to FAR more information (regarding the present, and thus the past as well) than any human ever could.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



We do.



The answer is simple: He doesn't know less than us. He knows far more, and thus, is able to predict with great accuracy the future, ESPECIALLY since He will have a hand in bringing about the future He desires.

And He KNOWS us—better than we know ourselves. That's MY point. And WE know ourselves pretty well! We certainly know something like if there are 10 different varieties of premium real ice cream available, and our favorite is chocolate and chocolate's available, that we're going to be having chocolate ice cream. If A then X, if B then Y, if C then Z. We know that. So does God.

"Canonical" XD

It's called the Bible, sir.

And vanilla Roman Catholicism simpliciter has the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by JP2. You always know the vanilla Roman Catholic simpliciter position by checking JP2's Catechism—very convenient. But also come to think of it, since the Bible is the infallible Word of God, that means the Bible's table of contents is infallible too (no other option). So whoever fixed the Bible's table of contents exercised infallible power. Did you ever think of that?

The Bible doesn't speak in terms of "openness" or "settled futures."

It speaks in terms of relationships and outcomes of actions.

Go watch the video from Godisopen that I posted where he is in a debate on Isaiah 40-48.



Let me put it this way:

It's not so much "our future choices are not known to Him" as it is "our likely future choices are known to him, but we could still decide otherwise," and also "God does not infallibly know the future."

This is weird. I know that President Trump will post on social media today. I don't even know him personally but I know that. It isn't even fallible knowledge, it's 100% certain he's going to do it.

The only obv exception would be if something happens to him which prevents him from posting on social media today. But that's going to be a different situation from a normal day, a normal day we might call condition A, and X is he's going to post on social media. If A then X. But if it's not a normal day, then maybe he doesn't post today. But that's a different condition, circumstance, or situation. Condition B or condition C or something.

The reason we deny that God infallibly knows the future is because the following argument removes God's freedom, not just man's, and the Bible throughout indicates that God is not only free, but capable of responding to men's choices and actions:


T = You will answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am.




This argument also says you yourself cannot know you will answer the phone tomorrow at 9 AM.

Problem is twofold. One is the phone needs to ring at 9 AM. How's that going to happen? Who's DEFINITELY calling? If you're answering the phone at 9 AM then someone's CALLING at 9 AM—who is that? How are they involved?

Let's set it aside, and figure it's a robo-call made by a computer. Let's further say the computer calls at 9 AM based purely on a pseudorandom algorithm, so that it's not even a computer programmer's choice involved in the call being made at 9 AM.

So God knows the computer based on its pseudorandom algorithm will call at 9 AM, because He's God. But now He also knows what you yourself know about yourself, viz. that when the phone rings you always answer it. This is a case of condition, circumstance or situation A entailing that you will choose free choice X, if A then X.

So if condition A obtains, then you will do X. A obtains. Now you do X.

You're saying, this argument is saying, that you can't even have this knowledge about YOURSELF and be a free person. This doesn't have anything to do with God's foreknowledge, it also denies your own foreknowledge about YOURSELF.

The other problem is what if you're like Two-Face, and you never ever do anything without first flipping a coin? Now in your argument before you answer the phone, you flip a coin to see whether you should answer it. God being God, knows the coin will come up heads say. You always assign heads to doing the affirmative thing, and so you answer the phone. You'd say that you are determined but not in the same way, right? The fact that there's a randomizer involved ties you not so much to God's foreknowledge, but to the coinflip. You're not determined because of God's foreknowledge that you'll answer the phone, but to the coin coming up heads.

Those two problems nullify this argument.

(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the phone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]


Just think of it as 'what comes to pass.'

Obtains what?



Supra.



Obtains what?

When you end your sentence with this, it no longer makes any sense.



Which is consistent with the OV.



When you straw man a position, it's no surprise that you'll be able to knock it down easily.

I didn't straw man anything.
 

JudgeRightly

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And He KNOWS us—better than we know ourselves. That's MY point. And WE know ourselves pretty well! We certainly know something like if there are 10 different varieties of premium real ice cream available, and our favorite is chocolate and chocolate's available, that we're going to be having chocolate ice cream. If A then X, if B then Y, if C then Z. We know that. So does God.



And vanilla Roman Catholicism simpliciter has the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by JP2. You always know the vanilla Roman Catholic simpliciter position by checking JP2's Catechism—very convenient. But also come to think of it, since the Bible is the infallible Word of God, that means the Bible's table of contents is infallible too (no other option). So whoever fixed the Bible's table of contents exercised infallible power. Did you ever think of that?



This is weird. I know that President Trump will post on social media today. I don't even know him personally but I know that. It isn't even fallible knowledge, it's 100% certain he's going to do it.

The only obv exception would be if something happens to him which prevents him from posting on social media today. But that's going to be a different situation from a normal day, a normal day we might call condition A, and X is he's going to post on social media. If A then X. But if it's not a normal day, then maybe he doesn't post today. But that's a different condition, circumstance, or situation. Condition B or condition C or something.




This argument also says you yourself cannot know you will answer the phone tomorrow at 9 AM.

Problem is twofold. One is the phone needs to ring at 9 AM. How's that going to happen? Who's DEFINITELY calling? If you're answering the phone at 9 AM then someone's CALLING at 9 AM—who is that? How are they involved?

Let's set it aside, and figure it's a robo-call made by a computer. Let's further say the computer calls at 9 AM based purely on a pseudorandom algorithm, so that it's not even a computer programmer's choice involved in the call being made at 9 AM.

So God knows the computer based on its pseudorandom algorithm will call at 9 AM, because He's God. But now He also knows what you yourself know about yourself, viz. that when the phone rings you always answer it. This is a case of condition, circumstance or situation A entailing that you will choose free choice X, if A then X.

So if condition A obtains, then you will do X. A obtains. Now you do X.

You're saying, this argument is saying, that you can't even have this knowledge about YOURSELF and be a free person. This doesn't have anything to do with God's foreknowledge, it also denies your own foreknowledge about YOURSELF.

The other problem is what if you're like Two-Face, and you never ever do anything without first flipping a coin? Now in your argument before you answer the phone, you flip a coin to see whether you should answer it. God being God, knows the coin will come up heads say. You always assign heads to doing the affirmative thing, and so you answer the phone. You'd say that you are determined but not in the same way, right? The fact that there's a randomizer involved ties you not so much to God's foreknowledge, but to the coinflip. You're not determined because of God's foreknowledge that you'll answer the phone, but to the coin coming up heads.

Those two problems nullify this argument.




Just think of it as 'what comes to pass.'



I didn't straw man anything.

Fix your formatting, please.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Why do you think that God knows less than we do in that case? If we know our future decisions, then God, who knows our thoughts before we speak them, could know our future decisions, too. But if our future decisions are still future, then we don't know them, and God doesn't know them. He doesn't know less than us in that instance.

We know all sorts of things about future choices, you're exaggerating. You know you're going to eat today. You know you'll answer nature's call a few times. You'll retire to bed tonight. You'll get out of bed tomorrow. All kinds of stuff.

My point was to take the Openness idea to its extremes, not to suggest a new breed of extreme Open Theism.

That wasn't a new breed, that was a breed I saw on TOL over 20 years ago. That's why I answered the way I did.

An extreme might be what Openness theology would lead us to think about the beginning of the world, for instance, or the time of the Apocalypse.

Supra.

We do? In every given instance?

Yeah. Remember we don't know the future, I'm not claiming otherwise, and by future here I mean conditions, circumstances and situations. We don't know the weather for instance, or whether there'll be a viral pandemic. And if the situations which obtain are just out of our common experience, like a World War breaks out, then ofc nobody really knows what they're going to do in the future, but it's not because we don't know ourselves, it's because we're taken by surprise by the circumstances which obtain. If things settle down and there's nothing surprising in the future, then we do have excellent certainty about the future choices that we will make.

Do you always make the same choice? Given the options of Fruit Loops or Raisin Bran (or pick two that you like), will you always choose Fruit Loops when both are available? I like to have just butter on my waffles sometimes, and sometimes I have butter and syrup. Or peanut butter and honey. And I can't tell you today what I will have tomorrow, although it likely will be just butter, since it is a choice I like more. If I don't know what I'm going to choose, then how can you or my family, even, know what I will choose. The choice hasn't been made yet. So God is not lacking knowledge in a case where no knowledge is available.

And that choice you're going to make is going to depend on your situation. Sometimes you wake up and you just have a hankering for syrup, and if you were to study this biochemically and take daily blood tests perhaps you'll see that when your blood sugar is on the low side, which only occurs once every 30 days or so, then it's associated with the hankering for syrup. Who knows. Point is, you don't know the future, in this case, your future blood sugar, or some other biomarker in your bloodwork. It affects how you feel, which affects your choice, but it remains true that when your blood or your central nervous system or some other physical condition that's beyond your ability to control, is a certain status, that you will choose syrup that day. And if it's not that status, you will choose just butter. If A then X, if B then Y.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Something is either a choice or it isn’t. There is no such thing as choice being a “small player”; that makes no sense. There is no such thing as “slightly choosing.” If alternatives exist, then one chooses; if not, then one does not choose. Factors such as access to information, emotional states, social pressures, neurological conditions, and coercion may affect the quality and moral nature of a choice, but the act remains a choice.

When you choose to love someone, you engage in a deliberate act that reflects your values. If the feeling of love were imposed or manipulated, it would lack the self-directed quality that grounds moral responsibility. In other words, love that is not chosen, if such a thing exists at all, can hardly be said to be authentically yours, and thus it doesn’t carry the same moral weight - if any.

Love is a response to values. It is with a person’s sense of life that one falls in love—with that essential sum, that fundamental stand or way of facing existence, which is the essence of a personality. One falls in love with the embodiment of the values that formed a person’s character, which are reflected in his widest goals or smallest gestures, which create the style of his soul—the individual style of a unique, unrepeatable, irreplaceable consciousness. It is one’s own sense of life that acts as the selector, and responds to what it recognizes as one’s own basic values in the person of another. It is not a matter of professed convictions (though these are not irrelevant); it is a matter of much more profound, conscious and subconscious harmony.​
Many errors and tragic disillusionments can occur in this process of emotional recognition, since a sense of life by itself is not a reliable cognitive guide. And if there are degrees of evil, one of the most devastating consequences of mysticism—in terms of human suffering—is the belief that love is solely a matter of “the heart,” not the mind; that love is an emotion independent of reason; that love is blind and impervious to the power of philosophy. In contrast, love is the expression of philosophy, a subconscious philosophical sum, and perhaps no other aspect of human existence so desperately requires the conscious power of philosophy. When that power is called upon to verify and support an emotional appraisal, when love becomes a conscious integration of reason and emotion, of mind and values, then, and only then, is it the greatest reward of human life" - Ian Rand​

Yes, Rand was an atheist and got many things wrong, but she sure as hell got that much right!

Adding a decidedly Christian spin to another point Rand made: God is a living, rational being who stands as the standard of righteousness. That which affirms, supports, or enhances the life of a rational being is good; that which negates, opposes, or destroys it is evil. Love, friendship, respect, and admiration are the emotional responses of one person to the virtues of another; they are the voluntary and volitional spiritual payment exchanged for the personal, “selfish” pleasure derived from those virtues. Only a brute or an altruist would claim that the appreciation of another person’s virtues is an act of selflessness, that as far as one’s own selfish interest and pleasure are concerned, it makes no difference whether one deals with a genius or a fool, whether one meets a hero or a thug, whether one marries an ideal woman or a slut.

Do you see the point? Love isn’t merely an intellectual act; it is a response of your whole being. If you love God, it is because you recognize in God virtues that you value, virtues that are either reflected in your own character or that you aspire to cultivate. These virtues do not come involuntarily; they must be chosen, cultivated, practiced, and nurtured. Only the person who genuinely loves God can possess the fullest, most profound self-esteem, because you cannot love that which is contrary to your own life. You cannot love someone else if you hate yourself; and if you are evil, then even your affection becomes a form of self-hatred and hatred toward the object of your affection. In all cases—right and wrong, good and evil, love and hatred.

Of course, this discussion must lead inexorably to the issue of what Paul referred to as "the flesh". I won't go into that here for the sake of brevity except to say that love, friendship, respect, and admiration are choices that we make and the degree to which we act contrary to these choices it is not we who do it....

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​
 
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Clete

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What is the difference between "biological mother" and mother simpliciter, in common parlance?

Nothing.
See what I mean! There's no way to win answering a question like that because the term isn't defined. Tell me what "mother simpliciter" means, Idolater! Based on what you just said, it means "biological mother" but I can guarantee you that you think Mary is FAR more than just that!

If there is no distinction then why not state it terms that have no ability to imply that Mary was the source of God?

The answer is, "Because we Catholics believe that Mary is the source of God Incarnate. That's why we pray to her and venerate her as a vital instrument in God's plan of salvation, beyond just the physical act of motherhood. She isn't just the biological mother of Jesus, she isn't just the woman who raised the boy Jesus along with her husband Joseph, she is the mother of God Himself and of all Christians for that matter!"
 
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