Omniscience means fatalism.

MennoSota

New member
Ah, I see what has happened: you have confused the word "permit" with "ordain." If God "ordained" the sin than he created and accomplished it, whereas what you just said was that he permitted their sin which they first created in their own heart to occur.

If you changed it to "Can we do that which God does not permit?" then that is an entirely different question, a proper rhetorical statement.
Ordained and gave permission are the same. His ordinance was that the sons of Aaron would disobey him, just as it was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus and that Adam would fall.
God did not cause them to act as they did. God ordained that they would act as they did.
The OP here calls God's omniscience...fatalism. The better word is determined, predestined or providential.
It is likely you will whine and ask how God could blame humans if they were predestined to something. I would then have to point you to Romans 9 and then you would ignore Romans 9 and whine anyway.
There I saved you the dialogue as it was ordained to be.
 

MennoSota

New member
God had no reason to kill them before they disobeyed.
Sure He did. Just like He has a reason to kill you and me this moment.
We are corrupt criminal lawbreakers who are by nature in rebellion against God. God has every reason to kill us and send us to eternal damnation.
But, God withholds His wrath and is patient. If God so wills, He pardons us by applying the wrath meant for us upon the perfect Lamb who takes away sin.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Sure He did. Just like He has a reason to kill you and me this moment.
We are corrupt criminal lawbreakers who are by nature in rebellion against God. God has every reason to kill us and send us to eternal damnation.
But, God withholds His wrath and is patient. If God so wills, He pardons us by applying the wrath meant for us upon the perfect Lamb who takes away sin.

You seem to believe that God is unreasonable.
 

Lon

Well-known member
if God knows you're going to post something excruciatingly retarded later this evening, is there anything you can do to avoid it?

Yes, but the knowing of it, did not stop you or help you along. It is just known what you did or are going to do. As far as my classical theology states, grace IS God stopping you. Yes, that is a control thing, yes that is a good thing. Proverbs 16:9 James 4:15 1 Corinthians 4:7 John 15:5 Luke 22:42
If an entity is omniscient, that means it knows everything — down to the movement of every subatomic particle throughout all history.

That entity must precede every physical thing.

The entity must be the source of everything.

The entity cannot have arrived at omniscience.

The entity had no option but to create exactly as it knew would happen.

An man living in this universe would be fated at every moment of his life.

Jeremiah 29:11 If you are correct, would this be a bad thing??? How could it be? Psalm 84:10? Job 13:15? Are these bad verses? Just bad for those with 'freewill?' :think:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Can we do that which God does not ordain?
Balaam shows us that we cannot. Jonah shows us that we cannot. Judas shows us that we cannot.

Jeremiah disagrees!

The following passage is God Himself speaking...

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),​

and again some chapters later...

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’​

You believe that God ordained the burning of babies in sacrifice to a non-existent god but how could He have done that if it never even entered His mind that they should do such a thing?

Clete
 

MennoSota

New member
Jeremiah disagrees!

The following passage is God Himself speaking...

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),​

and again some chapters later...

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’​

You believe that God ordained the burning of babies in sacrifice to a non-existent god but how could He have done that if it never even entered His mind that they should do such a thing?

Clete

LOL, do you always read prophesy as literal? Do you read this passage and declare that God is ignorant? Come on Clete, stop being a moron.
Romans 1 tells us that God gives them over to their lusts. This means God ordains that humans can act sinfully. In Job we read of Satan asking to sift Job. God said...yes. God ordained that Job would lose his wealth, his family and his health. None of these things could have happened unless God ordained it.
Sometimes God's plans are to allow great sorrow and tragedy to fall upon us. That does not make God evil. That means that a good God uses the corruption of this world to bring about His good will. Read Habakkuk and see how God ordains the rising up of wicked Babylon as His choice to discipline Judah. This is an example of the Sovereignty of God and our limited vision to understand God’s plans.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Yes, but the knowing of it, did not stop you or help you along. It is just known what you did or are going to do. As far as my classical theology states, grace IS God stopping you. Yes, that is a control thing, yes that is a good thing. Proverbs 16:9 James 4:15 1 Corinthians 4:7 John 15:5 Luke 22:42
God can't both know you are going to do something AND stop you from doing it.
 

MennoSota

New member
Clete, let's read the verses surrounding Jeremiah 19:5. In so doing we will see the ordained will of God.
Jeremiah 19:1-9
[1]This is what the lord said to me: “Go and buy a clay jar. Then ask some of the leaders of the people and of the priests to follow you.
[2]Go out through the Gate of Broken Pots to the garbage dump in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and give them this message.
[3]Say to them, ‘Listen to this message from the lord, you kings of Judah and citizens of Jerusalem! This is what the lord of Heaven’s Armies, the God of Israel, says: I will bring a terrible disaster on this place, and the ears of those who hear about it will ring!
[4]“‘For Israel has forsaken me and turned this valley into a place of wickedness. The people burn incense to foreign gods—idols never before acknowledged by this generation, by their ancestors, or by the kings of Judah. And they have filled this place with the blood of innocent children.
[5]They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!
[6]So beware, for the time is coming, says the lord, when this garbage dump will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
[7]“‘For I will upset the careful plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will allow the people to be slaughtered by invading armies, and I will leave their dead bodies as food for the vultures and wild animals.
[8]I will reduce Jerusalem to ruins, making it a monument to their stupidity. All who pass by will be astonished and will gasp at the destruction they see there.
[9]I will see to it that your enemies lay siege to the city until all the food is gone. Then those trapped inside will eat their own sons and daughters and friends. They will be driven to utter despair.’
 

Derf

Well-known member
LOL, do you always read prophesy as literal? Do you read this passage and declare that God is ignorant? Come on Clete, stop being a moron.
Romans 1 tells us that God gives them over to their lusts. This means God ordains that humans can act sinfully. In Job we read of Satan asking to sift Job. God said...yes. God ordained that Job would lose his wealth, his family and his health. None of these things could have happened unless God ordained it.
Sometimes God's plans are to allow great sorrow and tragedy to fall upon us. That does not make God evil. That means that a good God uses the corruption of this world to bring about His good will. Read Habakkuk and see how God ordains the rising up of wicked Babylon as His choice to discipline Judah. This is an example of the Sovereignty of God and our limited vision to understand God’s plans.

It isn't a statement of God's ignorance, it's a statement of God's not wanting them to do it. If God wants them to do evil, then His character is in question. This passage in Jeremiah speaks against that.
 

MennoSota

New member
Clete, let us look at Jeremiah 32. In so doing we will see the ordained will of God, both to bring calamity and bring healing.
Jeremiah 32:26-42
[26]Then this message came to Jeremiah from the lord:
[27]“I am the lord, the God of all the peoples of the world. Is anything too hard for me?
[28]Therefore, this is what the lord says: I will hand this city over to the Babylonians and to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and he will capture it.
[29]The Babylonians outside the walls will come in and set fire to the city. They will burn down all these houses where the people provoked my anger by burning incense to Baal on the rooftops and by pouring out liquid offerings to other gods.
[30]Israel and Judah have done nothing but wrong since their earliest days. They have infuriated me with all their evil deeds,” says the lord.
[31]“From the time this city was built until now, it has done nothing but anger me, so I am determined to get rid of it.
[32]“The sins of Israel and Judah—the sins of the people of Jerusalem, the kings, the officials, the priests, and the prophets—have stirred up my anger.
[33]My people have turned their backs on me and have refused to return. Even though I diligently taught them, they would not receive instruction or obey.
[34]They have set up their abominable idols right in my own Temple, defiling it.
[35]They have built pagan shrines to Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing. What an incredible evil, causing Judah to sin so greatly!
[36]“Now I want to say something more about this city. You have been saying, ‘It will fall to the king of Babylon through war, famine, and disease.’ But this is what the lord, the God of Israel, says:
[37]I will certainly bring my people back again from all the countries where I will scatter them in my fury. I will bring them back to this very city and let them live in peace and safety.
[38]They will be my people, and I will be their God.
[39]And I will give them one heart and one purpose: to worship me forever, for their own good and for the good of all their descendants.
[40]And I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good for them. I will put a desire in their hearts to worship me, and they will never leave me.
[41]I will find joy doing good for them and will faithfully and wholeheartedly replant them in this land.
[42]“This is what the lord says: Just as I have brought all these calamities on them, so I will do all the good I have promised them.
 

MennoSota

New member
It isn't a statement of God's ignorance, it's a statement of God's not wanting them to do it. If God wants them to do evil, then His character is in question. This passage in Jeremiah speaks against that.
No one has said that God desires people to sin. That would be contrary to His character. What I am saying is that God ordains (determines) that sin be allowed to be active.
God could end all sin immediately and throw all us sinners into hell immediately. He would be justified in so doing. But that is not God's ordination for this moment. At this moment, God is using sin to bring about His perfect will.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
In Job we read of Satan asking to sift Job. God said...yes. God ordained that Job would lose his wealth, his family and his health. None of these things could have happened unless God ordained it.

You appear to be saying that the test of Job's faith was nothing more than God playing with His toys.
God made Satan come before Him and ask to sift Job.
God made Satan destroy Job's home and family.
God made Job stay true to his faith in God.

God made all of that happen so that God could make other people read the book of Job and then think the thoughts that God made them think about what they read.

That makes everything that happened to Job completely meaningless.
That makes everything you post completely meaningless.
 

Derf

Well-known member
No one has said that God desires people to sin. That would be contrary to His character. What I am saying is that God ordains (determines) that sin be allowed to be active.
God could end all sin immediately and throw all us sinners into hell immediately. He would be justified in so doing. But that is not God's ordination for this moment. At this moment, God is using sin to bring about His perfect will.

Ordain is kind of a slippery word. Of course it can be used to say that everything that happens is what God ordained, otherwise God wouldn't let it happen.

But did God know what was going to happen before it happened? How long before? Did God know those particular Israelites would be involved in that particular sin before they were born? 100 years before they were born? 1000 years before they were born? Could He have altered their course?

Did God ordain, from the foundation of the world, that His chosen people would commit acts that are so bad that God wouldn't ever imagine telling His people to do them?
 

MennoSota

New member
Ordain is kind of a slippery word. Of course it can be used to say that everything that happens is what God ordained, otherwise God wouldn't let it happen.

But did God know what was going to happen before it happened? How long before? Did God know those particular Israelites would be involved in that particular sin before they were born? 100 years before they were born? 1000 years before they were born? Could He have altered their course?

Did God ordain, from the foundation of the world, that His chosen people would commit acts that are so bad that God wouldn't ever imagine telling His people to do them?
Yes.
God exists outside of time. He knew that humans would be corrupted and therefore corrupt His creation. He gave allowance to everything that has happened within His creation according to His will.
Do you hate the Creator for knowing evil would happen and allowing it to take place? Do you, a mere human who would not know right from wrong had God not created a moral law, dare to call God an evil monster because you have made up your own moral compass and thus declare the Creator to be evil? Do you imagine that your thoughts are higher than God's thoughts? If so, take your vile person and leave Theology Online. You have no place in the body of Christ.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Did God ordain, from the foundation of the world, that His chosen people would commit acts that are so bad that God wouldn't ever imagine telling His people to do them?

God is, and always was so perfectly wise, that nothing ever did, or does, or can elude His knowledge. God knew, from all eternity, not only what He Himself intended to do, but also what He would incline and permit others to do. "Known unto God are all His works from eternity" (Acts 15:18).

Consequently, God knows nothing now, nor will know anything hereafter, which He did not know and foresee from everlasting, His foreknowledge being co-eternal with Himself, and extending to everything that is or shall be done (Heb 4:13).

The influence which God's divine foreknowledge has on the certain futurition of the things foreknown does not render the intervention of second causes needless, nor destroy the nature of the things themselves.

By this, I mean that the prescience of God does not lay any coercive necessity on the wills of beings naturally free. For instance, man, even in his fallen state, is endued with a natural freedom of will, yet he acts, from the first to the last moment of his life, in absolute subserviency (though, perhaps, he does not know it nor design it) to the purposes and decrees of God concerning him, notwithstanding which, he is sensible of no compulsion, but acts as freely and voluntarily as if he was sui juris, subject to no control and absolutely lord of himself.

This made Luther—after he had shown how all things necessarily and inevitably come to pass, in consequence of the sovereign will and infallible foreknowledge of God—to say that "we should carefully distinguish between a necessity of infallibility and a necessity of coaction, since both good and evil men, though by their actions they fulfil the decree and appointment of God, yet are not forcibly constrained to do any thing, but act willingly."

Most assuredly, all that happens, whether in the nature of creation or by moral agents, was ordained by God. In His providence all that was ordained comes to fruition by secondary means, necessarily, freely, though with respect to second causes and us, many things are contingent, i.e., unexpected and seemingly accidental. That said, from the perspective of God there is no such thing as chance or fortune.

While the decree of God determines the certainty of future events, the decree of God neither directly effects or causes any event. In every case the decree of God provides that these events are rendered certain by causes that are acting in such a manner that is perfectly consistent with the nature of these events in question.

The purposes of God that relate to every kind of event constitute one single, comprehensive intention (volition) by God’s comprehending all events. Thus God comprehends the free events as free events, the necessary events as necessary events, all together, including all their causes, their relations, their conditions. This comprehension is one, indivisible system of things, every link of which is essential to the vital integrity of the whole.

Being the cause of all things, God knows everything by knowing Himself; all things possible, by the knowledge of His power, and all things actual, by the knowledge of His own purposes.

This distinction between the possible and actual, is the foundation of the distinction between the knowledge of simple intelligence and the knowledge of vision.

Simple intelligence is founded on God's power, and knowledge of vision upon God's will. This only means that, in virtue of God's omniscient intelligence, He knows whatever infinite power can effect; and that from the consciousness of His own purposes, He knows what He has determined to effect or to permit to occur. This is a distinction which the moderns, like yourself, Derf, ignore. Nothing, according to your philosophy is possible, but the actual. All that can be, either is, or is to be. This follows from the idea of God as but mere cause. He produces all that can be; and there is in God no causality for what does not exist.

Further such a view as yours necessarily implies if God creates by thinking or knowing, then all God knows must be, and must be as soon as He knows or thinks it, that is, from eternity. If, however, we retain the Scriptural idea of God as a spirit, who can do more than He does; if we ascribe to Him what we know to be a perfection in ourselves, namely, that our power exceeds our acts, that a faculty and the exercise of that faculty are not identical, then we can understand how God can know the possible as well as the actual. God is not limited to the universe, which of necessity is finite. God has not exhausted Himself in determining to cause the present order of things to be.


AMR
 

Rosenritter

New member
did God harden pharoah's heart?

Yes, there are a few cases when scripture does tell us that God specifically manipulated someone's will so that they would take a specific action, Pharaoh being one of them. Here we where God took that heart and "hardened" it so that it would not change for a certain duration. As such it would seem appropriate to use the word "ordained" for Pharaoh's action to pursue Israel into the Red Sea.
 

Rosenritter

New member
No one has said that God desires people to sin. That would be contrary to His character. What I am saying is that God ordains (determines) that sin be allowed to be active.
God could end all sin immediately and throw all us sinners into hell immediately. He would be justified in so doing. But that is not God's ordination for this moment. At this moment, God is using sin to bring about His perfect will.

In another thread you said that sin was perpetuated for infinity and refreshed with fresh instances of sin in hell, thus justifying its continued torment in response to the sin that it continues to foster and perpetuate. I think that was you?

Did you mean for that to say "God could end all sin immediately or throw all us sinners into hell immediately" to state them as mutually exclusive actions?

Just saying, that it seems that you are contradicting yourself.
 
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