No Takers Thread

[Samie]

Most Christian preachers teach that people are born NOT “in Christ”. And to be NOT “in Christ” is to be separate from Christ, to be NOT part of His body, to be spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). These preachers teach that to be "in Christ", people need to first believe and repent.

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to believe and repent, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? These preachers seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can believe and repent, making Christ's statement false.

If you are one of these preachers, you may choose one of the ff:

1. If you believe the brand of gospel you are preaching is true, then address the issue in the blue paragraph.

2. But if upon reading this post, you realized that what you are preaching is defective, then preach instead that people are born "in Christ" and that all they have to do to remain "in Christ" is overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), because overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

 

[chrysostom]

people are born "in Christ" and that all they have to do to remain "in Christ" is overcome evil with good

amen to that
and
welcome to tol

don't give up
you must overcometh

 

[Caino]

Most Christian preachers teach that people are born NOT “in Christ”. And to be NOT “in Christ” is to be separate from Christ, to be NOT part of His body, to be spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). These preachers teach that to be "in Christ", people need to first believe and repent.

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to believe and repent, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? These preachers seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can believe and repent, making Christ's statement false.

If you are one of these preachers, you may choose one of the ff:

1. If you believe the brand of gospel you are preaching is true, then address the issue in the blue paragraph.

2. But if upon reading this post, you realized that what you are preaching is defective, then preach instead that people are born "in Christ" and that all they have to do to remain "in Christ" is overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), because overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

It's simply means that to get to the Father we go through the Son. Without going through the Son we don't get to the Father. Jesus was making a matter of fact statement about the structure of the ascension plan.

When one repents and decides to seek God with a whole heart, then and there they are signing up for the ascension plan. It has always been true that salvaged souls go through the Creator Son. Jesus revealed it to us while on earth.

 

[Samie]

It's simply means that to get to the Father we go through the Son. Without going through the Son we don't get to the Father. Jesus was making a matter of fact statement about the structure of the ascension plan.

When one repents and decides to seek God with a whole heart, then and there they are signing up for the ascension plan. It has always been true that salvaged souls go through the Creator Son. Jesus revealed it to us while on earth.

So when is a person "in Christ"? After or before he believes?

 

[meshak]

Most Christian preachers teach that people are born NOT “in Christ”. And to be NOT “in Christ” is to be separate from Christ, to be NOT part of His body, to be spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). These preachers teach that to be "in Christ", people need to first believe and repent.

yes.

If you are in Christ, you will strive to obey everything that He teaches or commands. This is what it means "Jesus is Lord".

 

[Caino]

So when is a person "in Christ"? After or before he believes?

After

The prodigal Son is home after he comes home. Before that he's not home, he or she is wondering around the earth, out of decided faith, disconnected from God.

Galatians 3:26–28 (ESV)

..... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

 

[Samie]

If after, then he is not in Christ before he believed, and we are back to square one:

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to believe and repent, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? These preachers seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can believe and repent, making Christ's statement false.

 

[Caino]

If after, then he is not in Christ before he believed, and we are back to square one:

Your argument is a form of quibbling legalism.

Technically speaking we are ALL in God as children of God, we are within his creation for "in him will live, move and have our being". If we are estranged from God in spirit while in his creation, estranged from decided faith, we are not in the kingdom of believers. We are not "in Christ". If we have a change of heart we have a change of status.

 

[Samie]

Your argument is a form of quibbling legalism.

Using the words of Christ is, I think, not quibbling legalism. He said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)

Technically speaking we are ALL in God as children of God, we are within his creation for "in him will live, move and have our being". If we are estranged from God in spirit while in his creation, estranged from decided faith, we are not in the kingdom of believers. We are not "in Christ". If we have a change of heart we have a change of status.

You mentioned "estranged from God in spirit". That, to me, means you seem to believe that people were "in God" PRIOR to their being estranged from Him. And to be "in God" is to be "in Christ" Who is one with the Father. That supports my position that people are born "in Christ".

 

[jamie]

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to believe and repent, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? These preachers seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can believe and repent, making Christ's statement false.

Context helps.

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5 NKJV)​

Jesus' "branches" are not unbelievers, they are the people the Father has given to him.

Unbelievers do not bear much spiritual fruit and the natural mind is enmity against God.

Paul said that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Christ.

Keep it simple.

 

[Samie]

Context helps.

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5 NKJV)​

Jesus' "branches" are not unbelievers, they are the people the Father has given to him.

They are Christ's branches and therefore are "in Christ". No problem here.

Unbelievers do not bear much spiritual fruit and the natural mind is enmity against God.

By saying that unbelievers do not bear much spiritual fruit, that to me means unbelievers do bear few spiritual fruit. But you said that "Unbelievers" are not among His branches, and so they are NOT "in Christ" and CANNOT bear any spiritual fruit.

Paul said that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Christ.

True.

Keep it simple.

So how do you simply explain how those NOT "in Christ" can bear fruit when Christ Himself said they couldn't?

 

[jamie]

By saying that unbelievers do not bear much spiritual fruit, that to me means unbelievers do bear few spiritual fruit. But you said that "Unbelievers" are not among His branches, and so they are NOT "in Christ" and CANNOT bear any spiritual fruit.

People of all religions can be charitable to other people and to abused animals. People of all religions can be careful not to drive impaired or distracted. People of all religions can do many worthwhile things, but not all religions are of Christ.

Not all religions are of Christ and at this point not all people have been called to Christ by our Father.

 

[Nick M]

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to believe and repent,

John 12

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

And let's not forget the Holy Spirit had John write that after the fact so we could look back and know. And he also tells us it means just what we say it means about his crucifixion.

33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

Faith comes by hearing.....

 

[Caino]

Using the words of Christ is, I think, not quibbling legalism. He said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)

You mentioned "estranged from God in spirit". That, to me, means you seem to believe that people were "in God" PRIOR to their being estranged from Him. And to be "in God" is to be "in Christ" Who is one with the Father. That supports my position that people are born "in Christ".

The word nothing doesn't include surrendering and turning to Christ in faith. You are reading to much into one word to try to make a point that doesn't exist.

In God we have free choice to do his will or not, believe in him or not, believe in the Son or not. We can brush our teeth, take out the trash and even play tennis. We can do a great many things in Gods creation yet not be in Christ through faith in the context of the meaning of that term. According to Jesus some can claim to be in him yet Jesus doesn't know them. "Depart from me for I never knew you."


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


Galatians 3:26–28 (ESV)

..... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

 

[Nick M]

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to believe and repent,

John 12

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”


No takers? Take a seat...

 

[Samie]

John 12

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

And let's not forget the Holy Spirit had John write that after the fact so we could look back and know. And he also tells us it means just what we say it means about his crucifixion.

33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

Faith comes by hearing.....

Yes, and those who can spiritually hear are already spiritually alive. So, spiritually alive first, before one can have faith.

 

[Caino]

The theology lawyers do this stuff where they focus on one word out of the literary prose. Its like saying Jesus really is a tree branch and we really are vines and we really do produce tangerines. :crackup:

 

[jamie]

So, spiritually alive first, before one can have faith.

Even atheists believe in God or they wouldn't bother claiming he does not exist. However, their faith in no God is useless and gains them nothing.

 

[Samie]

People of all religions can be charitable to other people and to abused animals. People of all religions can be careful not to drive impaired or distracted. People of all religions can do many worthwhile things, but not all religions are of Christ.

Not all religions are of Christ and at this point not all people have been called to Christ by our Father.

All died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14, 15), being His body (Eph 2:11-19). And when the Head resurrected, the body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4, 5). Hence, all are "in Christ". Simple.

 

[Samie]

The theology lawyers do this stuff where they focus on one word out of the literary prose. Its like saying Jesus really is a tree branch and we really are vines and we really do produce tangerines. :crackup:

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14)