Which brings me back to the fact that if God hates sinners who were made sinners with never hope of turning from sin then why is God so angry with them that he burns them in hell forever?
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
- Status
beloved57
Well-known member
God must teach us and He will if we belong to Him of our total inability to believe in Christ and dispelling the myth of coming to Christ by our own freewill. Therefore teaching about mans total depravity and spiritual death is very important, this truth magnifies the truth that man doesnt have a freewill to come to Christ, hence Jn 6:44. By this the aim centers not on what man can do, his efforts or what have you ,to get saved but on Gods Sovereign Mercy and Grace and what He has done to save His People from their Sins Matt 1:21. One of this Great things is to be given life by the Mercy of God through Jesus Christ !
If God has taught you then why can you not tell me why God hates sinners so much that He burns them in hell in great wrath forever? I know why you cannot answer. Because you have no idea why God would create billions of sinners with no ability to repent of sins and then burns them alive in great wrath for sinning. The Calvinist position is seriously flawed.
beloved57
Well-known member
Rabbit trail !
beloved57
Well-known member
Those whom the Father draws to are those whom He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son Rom 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The call here is ,so that they may come to Christ. This call relates to the Fathers drawing, its the effectual call that goes out to His Chosen !
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The call here is ,so that they may come to Christ. This call relates to the Fathers drawing, its the effectual call that goes out to His Chosen !
beloved57
Well-known member
When God draws an individual its His Divine Call or Summons or Gathering in and which results in Faith in Christ. We know this because the ones He calls according to Rom 8:30 He also Justifies them Rom 8:30
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
And that incudes Faith as promised Rom 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Therefore, God's drawing is His calling/summon of the elect and it will be resulting in faith in Christ
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
And that incudes Faith as promised Rom 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Therefore, God's drawing is His calling/summon of the elect and it will be resulting in faith in Christ
beloved57
Well-known member
The drawing in Jn 6:44 ensures Faith in Christ, its not merely giving all men an opportunity to believe in Christ with their own freewill. Its not a juncture whereby they can either accept or reject Christ, its the calling into action the new life God has given them!
Calvinists believe that election is based upon foreknowledge but not foreknowledge of what men will do but foreknowledge of what God would do.
beloved57
Well-known member
Men naturally dont have a freewill to believe in Christ !
False statement not found in scripture.
For Jesus Himself says:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! - Matthew 23:37 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:37&version=NKJV
God wanted to gather Israel together, but SHE WAS NOT WILLING!
Calvinists believe natural men have no intelligence, knowledge, ability to communicate with God, or ability to humble themselves before God at the enlightenment of the Holy Ghost. They think unsaved men are like zombies without emotion or brains, which is stupid.
Genesis 4
9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Sinners in the OT were required to offer yearly sacrifices for their sins in order to have those sins covered. God did not offer those sacrifices for them. They were required to offer the sacrifices for themselves of their own free will.
Leviticus 1
1 And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.
God passes over sins of ignorance, but not sins committed willfully after the sinner has been enlightened by the Holy Ghost.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
beloved57
Well-known member
Man naturally is dead spiritually to God, yet he may be very intelligent naturally.
You keep saying that, as if it makes calvinism correct.
beloved57
Well-known member
Huh, It makes that man is dead spiritually correct.
beloved57
Well-known member
Well if man is dead spiritually he needs to be made alive, and thats out of his control !
@beloved57
Here's more verses that show that God is willing, but man is not:
Then the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery, just like the love of the Lord for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans. ” - Hosea 3:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea3:1&version=NKJV
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: “In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” But you would not, - Isaiah 30:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah30:15&version=NKJV
Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it,saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. - Luke 19:41-42 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke19:41-42&version=NKJV
Here's more verses that show that God is willing, but man is not:
Then the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery, just like the love of the Lord for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans. ” - Hosea 3:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea3:1&version=NKJV
For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: “In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.” But you would not, - Isaiah 30:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah30:15&version=NKJV
Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it,saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. - Luke 19:41-42 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke19:41-42&version=NKJV
Again, something I agree with, but you're still not hitting the point of contention.
beloved57
Well-known member
Rabbit trail Jn 6:44 stands sir
beloved57
Well-known member
Well if you agree with it, whats the contention ? I see no contention, man is spiritually dead to God
- Status