Repentance is not an action of man. Repentance is a work of grace performed in man by the Holy Spirit.
No Death Penalty. What Is Your Position?
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Repentance is not an action of man. Repentance is a work of grace performed in man by the Holy Spirit.
glassjester
Well-known member
Yes, and man is free to accept or reject God's gift of Grace.
No, he is not. And once received and experienced man would die rather than agree with your utter nonsense.
Binding in Christians?
It's not about Christians, it's about human beings.
I'll answer your question but I don't want to just glaze over what was said about John chapter 8.
Why doesn't it convince you? As sure as I'm sitting here writing this, you are going to use John 8 as an argument against the death penalty the very next time you get the chance and I just want to know what else is it going to take to ever convince you that you've gotten something wrong and to stop making false arguments.
Jesus did not let her go because she was innocent and so your point about the existence of witnesses is moot. Jesus didn't need witnesses to know whether she was guilty or not anyway. Her guilt isn't the point. It is Jesus' actions and the motive behind those actions that is the point here. If it had been his desire to abolish the death penalty for adultery, He could have simply said as much. Of course had He done so, He'd have been in direct contradiction to Moses and everyone would have understood Him to be a fraud. No way is the Messiah going to be anti-Moses.
And so I ask you again, why are you unwilling to allow sound reason and perfectly reasonable explanation of the scripture to convince your mind?
Much of the Mosaic Law has to do with symbolic practices and religious rites of the Jews as well as maintaining a situation where Jews would keep themselves seperated from other nations. This had to do with maintain pure blood lines for the Messiah (i.e. fulfilling prophesies concerning the Messiah) and other issues that had specifically to do only with the nation of Israel. Such laws have no application outside that context and so could not rightly be applied to any other nation.
It is the laws concerning basic morality that still apply. Remember your own stated premise...
"Of course the moral code remains. That which was morally wrong then, remains morally wrong today."
As for the specific laws you listed...
cursing one's parents - I've stated before that this law deals with adults not small children and that there are good arguments that would indicate that this law had to do with Israel and would not apply outside Israel's special covenant with THE Father.
falsely presenting oneself as a virgin for marriage - the bride has had sex with a man while betrothed to another, which is adultery and she ought to be punished by stoning as the bible prescribes. We know that such a bride is not merely guilty of fornication because the law does not prescribe death for fornication.
blaspheming, false prophecy, breaking the sabbath, sacrificing to a false god - All of these are religious law and have no application outside of Israel's particular covenant with God.
One might ask how do you tell the difference between a religious law vs a moral one. There are several ways. It does take some amount of wisdom and discernment in some cases but for the most part, it's pretty obvious. One important way to tell is that moral laws cannot contradict each other the way religious laws often do. There were regulations for how to handle it when, for example, the eighth day of a child's life fell on a Sabbath. Do you circumcise (a work of the flesh) or don't you? Moral laws do not conflict in this manner. One doesn't ever find themselves having to assault their neighbor to prevent themselves from having an affair with their wife or to steal from someone to prevent having to murder them.
Clete
[MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION], It drives me up a wall when we're talking about criminal justice, and someone uses "but Christians are not under the law any more," (which, in and of itself is true) as an argument against using God's law as a standard.
I mean, for starters, do they even hear what they themselves are saying?
"Christians aren't under the law" DOES NOT MEAN "the world should not have any moral law to govern it."
It's essentially special pleading, if not just straight up moving the goalposts.
The topic is the world, which means "ALL PEOPLE, including non-christians."
Insofar as criminal acts, I don’t see that as relevant. They still have the option/opportunity of accepting Christ PRIOR to their execution.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
It may be. How do people feel about you saying negro?
I am a Christian and I do not eat pork. I believe that the Torah is valid including including commandments that include a death penalty.
That is how much time.
glassjester
Well-known member
I didn't argue for that.
Maybe not intentionally, but that's what your argument boils down to.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Anyone. Not nobody. I am asking about the people you are saying it of.
I do not know. I thought that they don't like it, but that would be those who respond. I do not know the difference between black and negro, but I do care a lot about everyone. Plus we are likely talking about Americans here. United States Citizens. Are you talking about a race? And, you might not talk about the color of someone's skin. Aside from mentioning black and white here, there are all sorts of variations between them and other skin tones and colors as well.
People don't think. People don't even know how to think. People don't want the responsibility of thinking. They want others to think for them because it FEELS easier and FEELS less risky.
All they hear is "law" and they have a knee-jerk reaction and all thinking stops. Their brains are controled by cliche, sound bites, political correctness and superstition.
Having said that, there are exceptions. You'd think that forums intended to discuss theology would be one place where you'd find them but even here they are few and far between. I have always been frustrated by how hard it is for people who show up to discuss doctrinal issues to grasp that criminal justice and soteriology are not the same subject.
Clete
Very good point.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
nobody's responding but you
one is a color, the other is a race of homo sapiens
apparently not the young negro men who are slaughtering each other by the thousands
that is correct
yes
this is true, which is why i used the racial descriptive "negro" instead of the inaccurate color designation "black"
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